Product Marketing Adventures

Elle: So product marketers

look at metrics from

all over the business.

One metric that's, uh,

commonly tracked is win-loss.

There are many factors that

influence win-loss from sales

effectiveness to positioning.

Today we're gonna talk

about how one product

marketer studied win-loss

deals and turned it into

highly targeted pre-sales

marketing program for Twilio.

With that, it is my

pleasure to have Brandon

Penn on the show.

So let me tell you.

Why I've always been

blown away by Brandon.

He's a B2B, marketing and

go-to market leader who

has helped scale some of

the biggest names in tech.

So he built enterprise go-to

market programs at Twilio.

during the hyper growth

period, he ran marketing at

Shopify Logistics, which was

later acquired by Flexport.

And most recently he was

head of Marketing at Runway.

That's a finance startup,

rethinking business planning.

Brandon's got a deep

understanding of what it

takes to drive growth, tell

compelling stories, and build

brands that really stand out.

So Brandon, thank

you for being here.

It's amazing to have

you on the show.

Brandon: Awesome.

so excited to be here.

And, you know, as I was

prepping actually for,

for today's podcast, I was

thinking about like the

last time I did a podcast.

And it's been a while.

Uh, I don't do too many of

them, but when you reached

out and you told me about

what you're building,

I could not say no.

So very excited to be here.

Elle: Awesome.

Thank you so much.

I appreciate that.

well, let's dive right in.

I.

wanna hear about two

different things.

Brandon, first for our

listeners, what is Twilio?

And then tell me more

about what was going on

at Twilio when you created

this highly targeted A BM

program with the sales team?

Brandon: Yeah, sure.

So to set the stage for

those unfamiliar with Twilio

while its messaging has

evolved over the years since

you and I have been there.

fundamentally it's a suite

of communication APIs, and

so if you want to add SMS

email, voice, et cetera

to your product, you can

essentially use Twilio suite

of APIs, to build those

into your product suite.

and so I joined Twilio at

a very interesting, time.

This was 2017, a point where

Twilio had already been

public for about a year.

Uh, but there was this very

big initiative internally

to focus on moving up

market and successfully,

cracked the enterprise.

And so my role at Twilio

and I joined in 2017 was on

the solution marketing team,

where I focused specifically

on, competitive intelligence

and win-loss analysis.

And so what this meant was.

My day-to-day involves

analyzing data within

our CRM interviewing

customers who chose Twilio.

and at the same time, more

importantly, those who also

didn't move forward with, with

Twilio to really understand

the reasons why we were

winning and losing deals.

And the biggest insight

from my time doing

this analysis was.

even though the data showed,

uh, we were losing to some

competitors that came up

in various verticals of

the business, the biggest

reason actually that Twilio

was losing certain deals.

Was, this was ultimately

the status quo.

That was the

number one reason.

It was companies deciding

not to move forward

with Twilio because they

couldn't understand really

the, the full impact

of the ROI on Twilio.

And at the same time, again,

going back to the suite of

API communications, where

to start building and how

to get the most value out

of the different use cases.

And so with this insight,

uh, I partnered very closely

with yourself and the rest of

the product marketing team.

To create battle cards.

Objection handling materials.

Really work on refining

our positioning to enable

our sales teams on how to

compete more effectively.

and that also led to

myself hopping into deals,

to support the reps and

talking to prospects on,

here are the things that

you can do with Twilio.

we, as you're very familiar

with, broke it up into like

a crawl, rock run format

that was hyper tailored to

the size of the company, the

industry that they were in.

But also what they were

ultimately trying to

achieve from a digital

transformation standpoint.

and so in terms of, you

know, the impact that that

had, we would go in, we

would share these awesome

storyboards, these technical

blueprints, these ROI

analyses, and we really

just started to see our, our

sales cycle, just take off.

We saw a really cool

percentage increase in

terms of deal expansion.

And because these prospects

understood, okay, here's how

I can get started tomorrow.

and the value of adopting

each use case as they scaled.

Uh, we also saw a deal

acceleration, which

was really, really

amazing to see as well.

Especially enterprise cycles,

you know, can be anywhere from

six months, uh, or longer.

And so being able to speed

up the velocity of those

cycles was an amazing win.

Elle: Wow.

Okay, so I, there's a lot

that you gave here and I just

wanna unpack a little bit.

So one thing you mentioned

is the, one reason why Twilio

was losing deals and that's

to do nothing, and that's

so often overlooked when

doing win-loss analysis.

I think product marketers can

be so focused on competitors,

competitors, competitors.

There is another option, which

is to not do anything at all.

And sometimes you lose to

doing nothing instead of

losing to a competitor.

And that's still something

that the sales team needs

to be equipped to handle.

and it sounds like not

only did this program

work in competitive

situations, but also in

non-competitive situation

when the alternative to.

Using your product is to

do, use nothing at all.

so I just wanted to call

that out that this program

that you've created, is

applicable to both situations.

the other thing that's I, uh,

wanted to call out is that

in order to get to the point

where you realized, hey, we

should put together this.

Hyper targeted a BM program

where we're building out these

use cases and blueprints.

you had to study deals and

you had to go really deep into

what customers needed to see

before they engaged in a deal.

Okay, let's back

up for a minute.

Let's say that I wanted to try

to replicate, or, iterate on

a similar, initiative in my

role in my organization like,

let's say I wanted to increase

win rates for my product.

What I wanna do with you,

Brandon, is outline the steps

that A PMM would need to take.

So it sounds like step

one would be to study

win-loss data, right?

Understand why we

are losing deals.

And it sounds like for in the

situation, that you were in,

or I guess that Twilio was

in, was that they discovered

that, Twilio was losing deals

because of perceived value.

So let's say that we've

accomplished that.

I've studied my win-loss data.

I've discovered that

my customers have a,

misperception of value

for what my product

does or, or can do.

I guess what's the next step?

Where do I go from here?

Brandon: Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's

a really great point.

And I'd say even to, to

simplify it further, at

Twilio we have this value of

wearing the customer's shoes.

And great marketing isn't

about what we want to say.

It's about what our

customers need to hear.

And I find that the best

brands and the best product

marketers, I'd argue that

actually product marketers

more than any function

in the org, uh, should be

the most customer obsessed

because that's ultimately how

you can create real value.

And if you don't start

with a customer, I think

just first principles,

nothing else matters.

And so, I, I guess the

message that I'm trying to

get across here is, product

marketers should have the

deepest understanding, and

that's really what I focused

on, is like, how can I get

the deepest understanding?

How can I not just take

this, like the data

that our sales reps were

inputting into our CRM and

take that at face value.

How can I code deeper

and actually speak to the

customers to understand,

uh, firsthand why we're

winning and losing?

And so, I bring this up

because I'm not gonna

recommend that, like

there's a playbook or,

or a step, uh, that like

every team should take when

trying to replicate this.

I ultimately think it depends

on where your business

is currently at, what

that data is telling you.

And so I think starting with a

customer really helps do that.

And I can't imagine, just like

I. How easy it is nowadays.

I mean, I spent like hours

and days analyzing a lot

of this data, but now with

a lot of these AI tools,

it just makes it so much

easier to, to gather

that data, which is,

which is crazy.

uh, it's really crazy.

It's been, it's been fun using

tools like I. Uh, of course

Jet, GBT, but like you.com

and grok now, uh, to do like

deep research on the market,

the, the competitive landscape

and what that looks like,

and how you can use a lot of

that to inform your decisions

and what you're trying

to do, internally from a

product marketing standpoint.

So your question about,

this concept of value,

you know, when folks hear

the word value, I think.

Oftentimes they

immediately jump to price.

Oh, it's because

we're priced too high.

But value is so

much more than that.

Value in addition to the

cost of something is how

are you going to get the

most out of the solution?

How easy is it?

It to build or implement

this, product into your

day-to-day operations.

Is it saving you time?

Are you seeing an

increase in efficiency?

What are those things?

And ultimately, at

Twilio, what we focused

on is really just helping

customers understand that.

So we would spend time

gathering inputs to say.

Okay.

You know, how many, just

as a, as a, an example,

how many messages are

you trying to send?

What is your current cost

on if you had an existing

solution, what was that?

how many hours would you say

you spend time doing this?

And based off of a lot of

the benchmarks and data that

we had internally from our

customers, which was a, a huge

benefit at Twilio, we were

able to actually build these

really cool ROI calculators

for the various use cases

that customers can just

input their data and see.

for example, when the ROI

would be, what would be,

uh, the ROI on year one,

year two, year three, where

ultimately, it would pay

for like purchasing, Twilio

would pay for itself.

you know, twofold, threefold,

just because of the impact

they were able to see within

their business as a whole.

Elle: Got it.

Okay.

So what I love about

this is that you.

Took the data that you were

able to discover internally

and not only use it as

insights for bettering

your sales team, improving

efficiency or effectiveness,

I should say, of the

enablement for sales, but

also making it available to

customers to get value from.

That's really interesting.

and I know this isn't

something we talked about,

when we were preparing for

this conversation, but can

you tell me a little bit more

about how would one create

a value or ROI calculator?

obviously it starts with some

kind of benchmark data that

you have to get somewhere.

Best place to get that

is internally, of course.

any other tips about that?

Brandon: Yeah.

So, when we were building

these ROI calculators,

we were using, Google

Sheets or Microsoft Excel.

Actually, Microsoft Excel was

the preferred just because

of the, the capabilities

of the macros and what

you're able to build with.

Within the certain files.

And so to your point, yes,

a lot of it started with

gathering kind of benchmarks.

And so what we looked at

at Twilio was, an example,

actually, a good place to

start is, every company

nowadays, I feel like social

proof is just becoming,

uh, incredibly important.

you know, has customer

stories, has case studies,

and within those case studies

and within these interviews,

you're oftentimes asking

like, what was the impact

of purchasing this solution

or, or implementing it.

And so those impacts could

be anything from cost

savings, time savings.

you can essentially take

those inputs, aggregate

them across various

industries or company size.

And what you'll get is

like loose benchmarks on,

hey, these are the average,

as to what customer's

experience on top of using

your product or solution.

And so that's where we

started as like one input.

Uh, obviously there's,

there's other inputs,

but we essentially

built these calculators

using those benchmarks.

And so, all the customer or

prospect had to do is saying,

okay, if you wanna understand

the ROI or the perceived

impact of implementing, let's

say, personalized emails

using Twilio, SendGrid, uh,

you would essentially input

those, Things that we need

in the calculator and it

would spit out like, okay,

here's the expected ROI

and what you should see.

you know, most of the

time that's really

what customers wanted.

Now we weren't promising.

That was like, okay,

you're gonna see this.

but we were saying like, Hey,

this is very much built on top

of our customer benchmarks.

And so, based off of companies

that are similar to you.

Your size, your industry,

this is what they saw.

and we have high conviction

that what we're looking at and

evaluating today will drive

the same results for you.

Elle: Yeah, absolutely.

So with the ROI calculator,

was it more of a sales

enablement tool and the

seller would maybe walk

through it with a customer

live, or was it like a

polished, webpage that a

customer kind of self-serve?

And put things on their own.

Brandon: Yeah, great question.

So it was primarily a tool

that we focused a lot on

enabling our global sales

team on how to best use.

Um, so we had a great

sales and inland team

that we partnered with.

To essentially host these ROI

calculators in our CMS, and

then we would train our reps

on being able to effectively.

Open up the calculator,

make a copy, and use

it for their deals.

And if for whatever reason

it was a more comprehensive

analysis that was needed,

they would actually just

ping, uh, myself and the

team directly and we would

hop in, as I mentioned,

to support our sales reps

and our strategic AEs.

With being able to run these

ROI and economic analyses for

our prospects and clients.

and then to your point, it

actually later then turned

into a growth channel.

And so, uh, shout out

to, uh, Kavia Gupta on my

team at the time who took

this and actually worked

really closely, uh, with

our marketing team to

spin up, a messaging ROI

calculator for Twilio.

that still to this day

drives valuable leads to

Twilio because they're

able to self-serve.

on Twilio website, just

input some of their key,

uh, data points and see the

expected ROI of implanting

uh, Twilio solution.

Elle: I love it.

That's amazing.

Also, love that we have

a shout out already to

another incredible PMM.

okay, so you, we have

this incredible, uh, ROI

calculator that started.

As a tool for sales and then

evolved into a growth channel.

that's amazing.

But you also

mentioned blueprints.

Tell me a little bit more

about what that looked like.

I.

Brandon: Yeah, so.

Going back to Twilio at its

core, you know, being a suite

of communication APIs, this

again, was like 20 18, 20 19.

Uh, the concept of

API first SaaS was a

relatively new concept.

I'd say that, you know,

we've seen huge players

in, in this market across

industries, uh, like Stripe,

new Relic, et cetera.

and because of the nature

of APIs, we didn't really

have the most robust demo

library, so you couldn't

really say like, okay, you

want, like, here's what

this does, but kind of like

dream it, like feel like.

here's the audit of possible

and what it could look like.

But we very much had to,

take that and put it into

the customer's words.

And so in terms of like the

blueprint design and the

storyboarding, I. What we

effectively did was, with our

enterprise clients, we would

actually just talk about like,

what is the customer journey

that you want to achieve?

Just in your words, what

are you ultimately trying to

build and do from a customer

engagement standpoint, I.

Once the customer shared

that with us, we actually

had an illustrator on the

team that would mock up these

beautiful storyboards, to

show, okay, your customer

as an example, let's just

say I'll give Best Buy.

best Buy would essentially

say, okay, this was

during the time of Covid.

if a customer wanted to

purchase a new washer and

dryer machine, let's say

they start on the Best Buy

website, they're talking with

chat, but then they convert

to wanting to do a phone call.

Well, most of the time,

uh, and we all know

this as consumers, when

you're switching from a

chat bot to a phone call

or even to an email.

Each of those channels that

you switch to, you'll lose

the context and you have to

start completely

from the beginning.

so frustrating.

Elle: time.

Brandon: Mo,

most of the times I'm just

like, even when I'm, when like

I'm talking to like an IVR

nowadays at Twilio, you know,

you can actually learn it.

Just smash the button zero.

And just like, I

don't want to answer all

these questions, just,

just go directly to an

agent.

But yeah, so we, we would

essentially whiteboard

these things and when we

were able to whiteboard

that, and produce these

really, neat creative

storyboard illustrations.

We would then, uh, show

what's behind the scenes

in each of these things.

So it's a little bit hard

to explain without showing.

but, you know, we would

storyboard it and then

we would say, this is the

technology that Twilio has

that essentially powers this

workflow or this mockup to

be a real life scenario.

And so, uh, we would

essentially technically

map out the roadmap and

understand, based off of the

understanding of, okay, these

are the current, technologies

and systems that the client

has, their, you know, their

CRM, their ERP, whatever it

may be, what they're trying

to accomplish, and show

how Twilio kind of connects

all the dots and fits into

the picture so that when a

customer was say like, okay,

perfect, this is what I need.

They can take that blueprint.

And just start building

internally with

their developer team.

Or if they didn't have

developer resources.

We had an amazing expert

services team and program

at Twilio where we would

partner really closely and

hand off those blueprints to

the expert services team that

would actually go and build

that exact solution that we

whiteboarded for the customer.

Elle: That's amazing.

That's amazing.

And I could imagine this,

if some PMM out there wanted

to iterate on this concept.

If you have a professional

service team or if you

have partners, like channel

partners who offer services

on top of your product

offering, this would be

a great opportunity to

loop a channel partner in.

so I love that concept.

Okay, so you had, these

use case blueprints,

the storyboard,

the ROI calculator.

These are great assets and

I'm sure the sales team.

Loved them.

So when you were

launching, did you have

to do a pilot program?

Did you have to get buy-in?

I mean, who was your

executive sponsor?

Brandon: Yeah, that's,

that's a fantastic question.

So, you know, as we were

piloting this stuff, a lot

of it, as I mentioned, was

just our sales reps asking

if I can join the call to

share some of this stuff or

conduct some of these ROI

analyses or just talk about

how Twilio was differentiated.

I. and I, I just noticed,

like as I got pulled

into more and more sales

conversations, there were

a handful of asks and, you

know, we could pick up themes

that were kind of the same.

And so there was this one

bucket of I want to really

just like understand the art

of the possible with Twilio.

And so we called those like

dreaming sessions or are

the possible sessions where

we would go in, ask these

questions and do some, uh,

high level whiteboarding

together to then turn into

one of these storyboards

that I was mentioning.

Uh, the second piece was

customers wanting to have the

technical blueprint analysis.

So it was like, okay, like

I know you have this demo

at Twilio, but what does

it actually look like, if I

were to implement it today

and showing how the various.

Twilio suite of

communications fit within

their technology stack.

And so we would just,

you know, show the more

technical blueprint analysis

of how that storyboard and

how that are the possible

actually became possible.

And then lastly, the,

the second theme was

like customers wanting

to understand the value

and the ROI of Twilio.

And so we decided to very

much design our suite of

the program was called

Foundry, by the way.

I don't know if I mentioned

that it's been since re

rebranded, but it still

today is, is like a crucial

part of how how the Twilio

Enterprise team sells.

but yeah, that's how

we designed our, our

services for our kind of,

essentially for, for our

prospects and customers.

Elle: Y Yeah.

Yeah.

So you, you just

name dropped Foundry.

that was gonna be my

next question, is what

this looked like from the

customer's perspective.

so programmatically calling

it Foundry, tell me a little

bit more about how that

came to be, and then did

you have to do marketing

for Foundry or I guess what

was the, the transition

to this hyper-focused A

BM style program that's

officially foundry.

Brandon: Yeah.

Yeah.

So we called ourselves

Foundry, uh, at the time, and

Foundry was essentially like

that special ops pre-sales

team, if you will, that

would go in and support

our clients with running

these various services.

And in terms of having

to market it, um, we

found a few channels

to be very successful.

one was just, you know.

Because of the enablement

work that we did, sales knew

based off of the client that

they were trying to sell

into, uh, kind of the, the

certain hurdles that they

were trying to overcome,

when it would be a good fit

to engage the Foundry team.

So if they found that this

opportunity would be a good

fit to loop us in, they

would submit like a, a ticket

within our internal process.

that was one example.

the second was actually

marketing it on the

enterprise page.

So if you go to

twilio.com/enterprise, I still

think this page is live today.

I'll have to, I'll have to

double check.

but it would talk about

Foundry and again, it's

been rebranded and I

think it's executive

engagement programs now.

but you could essentially, you

know, learn more about how you

get this white glove service

to really like hop into an

executive briefing center with

the totally executive team.

do these are the possible

sessions, um, and really

understand how you can get

the most value out of Twilio.

And so we, definitely had

a landing page with some

language around that.

and I'd say one of, one of

the best forms of marketing

was, oftentimes when that

prospect converted to a closed

customer, They would at times

be able, like, talk about

their foundry experience,

give us social proof that

we would then, uh, leverage

internally, but also that our

sales reps can also pull in

their slide decks to pitch,

the various foundry offerings

and the impact that we had.

Elle: I love it.

That's fantastic.

so you've mentioned so

much goodness here, Curious

if you have any documents

or examples that you'd

be willing to share.

Maybe a sample bill of

materials to get started,

or an example of what

content might look like for

customers to engage, with

a program like Foundry.

or I guess now it's the

executive, I've already

forgot what you mentioned.

Brandon: Ex executive

Elle: Yeah.

Executive engagement program.

Yes.

Yes.

do you have any examples?

And if you do, we can,

drop 'em in the show notes.

Brandon: Yeah, I'll, I'll

have to do some digging to

see, what I have a lot of it.

you know, we're very, as I

mentioned, hyper-personalized,

hyper customized.

Like ROI analyses and

workflows and blueprints

for the customers that we

oftentimes delivered in like

a 60 page slide deck that,

the customers took and,

you know, started building

against and executing upon.

Um, and we'd have various

touch points throughout that

engagement, uh, in terms of

check-ins to see how that was

going to ensure that, they

would be success in doing it.

So, a lot of it did have

some like, customer sensitive

information, but I'll have

to take a look at the archive

Elle: Yeah, Okay.

so last question, uh, for

you on this topic, Brandon.

Any last piece of advice

you have for a product

marketer who's trying to

create a highly targeted

pre-sales marketing campaign

to improve win rates?

Brandon: Yeah, so I'd say,

one, it starts with like

being customer obsessed

and understanding the

customer more than anyone

within the organization.

That's probably

like the number one.

If I had to leave you like

number one advice, it would

be that I. the second piece

is again, we have this value

at Twilio called Draw the Al.

And a handful of other

startups I think, have taken

this to incorporate within

their company values as well.

But what that essentially

meant was there isn't like,

yes, there are playbooks

and there are frameworks

to build certain things

and you know, playbooks

are playbooks for a reason.

There is definite success.

well, I wouldn't say

definite, but there's,

uh, success stories behind

those playbooks, which is

why they are playbooks.

But ultimately the story

of Foundry and what we

created, was just a, an idea.

now companies have

similar things.

I know Stripe has an

executive engagement programs

that could be, you know,

sim there, there's some

aspects of that that are

similar but also different

to what Twilio is doing.

So I would just say like,

be very open and think

about, you know, if you

focus on the customer

and what your customer is

trying to achieve and the

themes that you're finding.

very much work to build a

solution, uh, and build a

program that is going to

best support your goals.

And those could be, you

know, existing things that

companies have that you

can find inspiration from.

But ultimately I think you're

gonna find the most success,

being able to create something

that's hyper personalized

and design for what you're

trying to accomplish and who

you're trying to sell to.

Elle: I love it.

Yes, absolutely.

The customer obsession is so

real for product marketers.

I think it there you have to

have a natural empathy to be.

A product marketer.

and that goes so hand in hand

with the customer obsession.

I could not agree more.

alright, so now it's time

for our next segment.

So this is our message

critique segment.

This is where we as product

marketing experts, analyze

real world messaging.

But here's the fun part,

you, Brandon, my guest,

get to choose the company.

and before we get started,

I wanna establish some

ground rules here.

So once you pick the company,

we're gonna walk through three

things, uh, related to this

message critique, exercise.

So first I wanna hear one

thing that you love about

the messaging, what's

working, what made the

product stand out to you?

And then second, share one

thing that you wish the

PMM had done differently.

Something that could have

made the message more clear

or stronger or more impactful.

and then third, where

could this go next?

How could you iterate

on the messaging?

Um, what creative campaigns

could the PMM think about?

maybe how could they test it

or take it to the next level?

So this is all about learning

and refining our craft.

No negativity.

Just a thoughtful,

constructive critique.

Sound good?

Brandon: All right.

Let's do it.

Elle: Okay, let's get into it.

So, tell me about a

product or company that

has caught your attention.

Good or bad,

somewhere in between.

Brandon: Yeah.

So there's this company

called Default, default.com,

and I don't know if

you wanna pull it up

on, on your

Elle: Yeah, I'm gonna

pull it up right now.

default.com.

Brandon: Yeah.

So this is a product that,

during my time at Runway,

uh, we use heavily, to really

support with automating our

inbound funnel and increasing

the conversion rates from.

at the point in time when

someone books a demo all

the way to them being a

clo, a closed one customer.

And so why I'm choosing

default is because, uh,

I loved using m as as a

customer, but also, uh,

they just recently went

through a big rebrand.

Um, and so this is very

much like the new messaging.

And,

Elle: yeah.

We'll back up for a minute.

Tell me what do they do?

Brandon: Yeah.

So default is, essentially

a, a go-to market solution.

Uh, there's a lot of these

go-to-market software,

but they focus very

much on making inbound

scheduling much easier.

So if you have a clearly

defined ICP customer, you

can take that criteria.

Let's say a company,

you're like, you're

targeting companies with

minimum 50 employees,

upwards of a thousand.

Specifically financial

services industry, you can

use that criteria to say if

you click book a demo and

you input that information,

if you meet that criteria,

you can book a meeting on

a sales calendar like right

then and there versus I.

Having to request that demo

wait for sales to follow up.

Sales might take

anywhere from 24 to

40 hours to follow up.

And so you're very

much increasing the

conversion rate of like,

Hey, you're qualified.

I want to show you a

sales calendar now.

So you can book that

demo, and really start

that sales conversation.

And similarly, like if they

aren't qualified, you can

design with default these

other workflows that would

push you into like a really

great self-serve flow, uh,

or push you just different

things, um, that just make.

Inbound so much easier.

I call this like the leaky

bucket problem, right?

This is a well known like

phrase, which is like, you

can have the best marketing

you can do, have the best

paid acquisition in the world.

But if you aren't able

to fix like the actual

inbound workflow piece,

you're, you're losing leads

at every single stage.

And so default very much,

as I mentioned, you were

using 'EM runway very much

helped automate that entire

process and have, uh, and

really bring us confidence in

increasing those conversion

rates from a sign up to a

qualified lead to a sales

qualified lead, et cetera.

Elle: I love that.

You know, it also sounds

like it really captures the

eagerness of the prospect too,

right?

Rather than making them wait,

like, ah, their energy kind

of goes down after that point.

So, I love it.

Okay, so let's, what do you,

let's, let's walk through the

Brandon: Yeah,

let's take a look.

Let's take a look.

So, when you go to the default

homepage, you see here like

their, their hero copy.

So, uh, revamp inbound with

easier routing, actual intent

and, and faster scheduling.

and then the, the subheader

unlock efficient growth

with one platform that

automated scheduling,

routing, enrichment,

and intent workflows.

So I guess, you know, looking

at this, I like that the

headline is action oriented.

I think it's great.

I think it highlights key

things that default does,

which as I mentioned,

automated scheduling, routing,

enrichment, and I think that

the subheader, this concept

of all in one solution,

I know that's becoming, I

dunno, a little bit cliche

almo like nowadays or I'd

say like overused, where like

everyone's talking about like.

Hey, you can use, I mean,

even at Twilio, it was like

one platform for all your

customer engagement.

but I do think within the

space that they're in,

like there's this concept

of go to market bloat.

Like prior to default

companies would have,

like, if you weren't using

default, you're using

like 10 different various

products, and solutions for

like your inbound tech stack.

And so I think there,

that's an important

note that they hit on in

terms of like feedback.

I think that there's a

little bit of repetitiveness

between like the headline,

the revamp statement, and

the subheader.

There's some repetition in

terms of features, right?

I think there're

mentioning routing.

They're mentioning intent.

Yep.

They're mentioning scheduling.

And so from a product

marketing standpoint, I think.

my, my opinion of like,

when you're trying to create

good positioning and more

importantly like really good

hero copy, it's like how

do you explain what you do

in as few words as possible

without losing

clarity?

you're familiar with ramp.

Ramp has has, you know,

grown incredibly fast

over the last few years.

But I was recently on Ram's

website, and I don't know

if this is new messaging

or not, but if we pull up

their website, and just

compare and contrast the

two different companies.

Okay, time is Money Save both.

I think this is

just genius, right?

It's very few words, very

short, very to the point.

And you can get a sense

of the overall value

proposition of ramp.

and so once they have that

like very crisp header,

uh, they then go to

explain what, uh, within

the subheader, what they

actually do.

Right?

So easy to use

corporate cards, bill

payments, accounting,

and a whole lot more.

Again, all in one place.

You, you see the similar

messaging and so.

For default.

I think there's an

opportunity to do that.

a great test when trying

to come up with like hero

copy or any messaging.

I call this like

the parent test.

if you showed this

messaging to your parents,

would they understand

what the company does?

If the answer is no,

that means that there's

an opportunity for that

messaging to be simplified.

Now, my parents aren't in

tech and so, you know, take

that with a grain of salt.

But you can use that as

a, as a, as a guide more

or less to really make

it easy to understand.

I always like to think

like, don't try and

complicate things.

You know, the ramp example

time is money, save both.

It's just very simple,

very approachable language.

Elle: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Uh, another test that

I've heard, I think it's

called The barbecue test,

where, so where if you, if

you go to a barbecue, you

take this messaging, and you.

if someone asks you,

oh, what does revamp do?

Well, revamp.

sorry.

What does default do You say,

well, default lets you revamp

inbound with easier routing.

Actual intent.

It festers.

'cause you're like, you

wouldn't talk like that

as a barbe at a barbecue.

You know?

Brandon: exactly.

Elle: So, I'm on

board with that.

Like, very simple

to the point.

We don't have to use

verbose language just

to get our point across.

Brandon: All right, so

key takeaway listeners.

Organize a barbecue with

your parents if you're trying

to refine your messaging.

Elle: Exactly.

Brandon: I'll also say, um,

I was just realizing, I, I

noticed scrolling, scrolling

down on, on the new homepage.

I'm actually featured there.

caveat, I, I, by no

means am an investor in

this company, so I'm not

talking to my own book.

Uh, I'm

just, I'm just, a, I'm

just a happy customer.

Um, so yeah, that was

that was funny.

See.

And, and even on this, I

love, as you're scrolling

through the homepage, this

is actually beautiful.

again, this, this was just

released I think a week or

two ago, and I know, Nico,

the founder and, and the

default team really well.

But, um, what I love here

is each of these core

product capabilities.

They're making it even

stronger by showing

the social proof and

showing a customer story

that's very much associated

with that product capability.

So,

Elle: yes, I also really

like that they right next to

the product capability, they

show you an illustration to

help you firmly understand.

So kudos to that team.

You guys are

doing a great job.

maybe tweak your header.

Okay.

Amazing.

Brandon, before we go, uh, I

wanna have a gratitude moment

and say thank you so much

for your willingness to share

your knowledge and expertise

with me, um, in the product

marketing community today.

Thank you so much.

and.

Brandon: at you.

I think this is, uh, an

incredibly fun project that

you're work working on.

Elle: Yay.

Thank you.

I know for me personally,

expert marketers like yourself

have firmly shaped my PMM

craft, and I'm curious for

you who are maybe one or two

pmms who have really impacted

your career and, you know,

this is a great opportunity

to give some public kudos.

Brandon: Yeah, so the two

pmms that come to mind, uh,

were on my team at Shopify.

Danny Gibson and Theo

Earl, two of probably the

best product marketers

I've ever had the, the

opportunity of working with.

So they're fantastic and I'm

calling 'em out 'cause they

should totally get on this

pod and share their insights.

Elle: Amazing.

Danny and Theo, I'm coming

for you sliding into your dms.

Brandon: I can definitely

help with that.

I can, make a warm intro.

Elle: Thanks Brandon.

Um, okay.

And my last question for

you, where else can we

access your expertise?

Is it just best to

find you on LinkedIn?

Brandon: Yeah, li

LinkedIn is probably the

best place to find me.

Um, send me a

connection request.

if you do, you'll also see

some of my, I try not to be

too cringe, but, you know,

LinkedIn content, you kind of

have to be cringe, so Yeah,

de definitely, that's

Elle: all just

embracing it.

Brandon: Me.

Elle: Great.

I love it.

Again, thank you so much

Brandon, and Thank you PMM

listeners for coming on this

adventure with us today.

I hope this episode leaves you

with inspiration to take the

next step in your own journey.

Brandon: Thank you so much.