Product Marketing Adventures

Elle: Do you remember when

Netflix was just a DVD by

mail rental service, or when

Apple only sold computers?

Or what about when Google

was just a search engine?

Every giant brand you

know today started as

a single product story

and with one product.

This story is simple.

Here's the problem and

here's how we solve it.

But once you expand

with more offerings, the

story gets complicated.

If you go too broad with

the story, your platform

sounds like empty buzzwords.

If you go too narrow, you

undersell the bigger value.

The art of platform

storytelling is finding

that balance, painting a

big picture vision while

anchoring it in clear,

differentiated value.

But don't worry, I've

got two experts to walk

us through an amazing

case study on this topic.

Jonathan Pipek

and Craig Brown.

So, Jonathan Pipek is

the founder of Blue Manta

Consulting, and he's

built his reputation as

the expert strategist

that B2B SaaS startups

turn to when they need to

get their go to market.

Right.

Earlier in his career,

he worked with B two B2C

with Fortune 500 Giants

like Samsung, T-Mobile,

and Xfinity launching

specialty insurance products

to millions of consumers.

Since then, he's built PMM

departments from scratch

at startups, worked in the

mid-market and mentored

over 90 pmms across 20

countries through a DP list.

He also serves as a

go-to-market mentor at

1871, Chicago's largest

startup accelerator.

Also, joining us today is

Craig Brown, the founder of

Troubadour, the UK's first

dedicated product marketing

consultancy for B2B Tech.

Craig has been the founding

product marketer at

several fast growing VC

backed SaaS startups like

Beamery Invisible, where he

spearheaded positioning and

go-to market motions for us

market entry and expansion.

He also co-created the UK's

first PMM Meetup group back

in 2018 when there were

only about 350 B2B Tech

pmms in the entire country.

Today he mentors for programs

like OVH Cloud's, uh, startup

program, and start out for

LGBTQ plus founders, and you

can even catch him on stage as

an mc this year at SaaS Stock

Europe Conference in Dublin.

Craig and Jonathan,

it's amazing to have

you both on the show.

Craig: Hello.

Jonathan: Thanks so

much for having us.

Elle: Of course.

Okay, so before we dive into

the case study, tell our

listeners a little bit more

about how you two started

working together in the

product marketing world.

Jonathan: So I think it was,

uh, what, like a year, year

and a half ago, Craig, at this

Craig: Yeah.

It, it was about, yeah,

a year and a half ago.

Yeah.

Jonathan: Yeah.

So about a year and a half

ago, um, I got a new client

that's based in Europe and

I wanted to find a really

smart PMM that's also based

in Europe because I wanted

them to understand kind of the

nuances of each market, right?

Uh, Europe's multicultural,

a lot of different countries.

It's not, you know, as, as

uh, kind of straightforward

as one country like the us.

So really wanted someone

to understand the nuances.

And then also was looking

for someone who was just

absolutely killer at

positioning messaging.

Uh, the first person I

thought of was Craig.

I had already kind of

built a relationship with

him through LinkedIn.

I knew he knew his stuff.

He had a fantastic

reputation, uh, through

Troubadour, and I knew he'd

be an excellent partner.

So I reached out.

Uh, luckily he said yes.

And, uh, that was,

uh, the beginning of a

wonderful, uh, partnership

and, and friendship.

So.

Craig: Yeah.

And, and Jonathan has just

been disappointed ever since.

So, um, I really apologize,

um, for that Jonathan, um,

Elle: So fun.

I love it when LinkedIn

friends turn into

beautiful partnerships.

That's

Craig: IRL.

Elle: IRL.

Yeah.

Um, alright, so let's get into

the heart of today's episode.

For our first segment, we

want to unpack a case study

where you two helped a

growth stage European legal

tech client, um, enter the

US market and with a really

big shift from a single

product story to a platform

story that is no small feat.

It sounds simple, but

it's actually super hard.

So, uh, set the stage for us.

What was happening at this

company when you two first

came into the picture?

I.

Craig: Yeah, so it was really

interesting because, um.

Despite them being one of

the market leaders, the

market itself was shifting.

and that pace of change

was accelerating.

So we saw new competitors

coming in and it wasn't

this kind of slam dunk

as it would've been back

in the day for, I guess,

the market drivers that

were there kind of eight,

nine years ago for this

company and, and the product

that they were selling.

So a lot more competition

and need to innovate and,

uh, it, it just meant, if you

like, that they really had

to start thinking externally

about their positioning, but

also internally around how.

The whole go-to market

engine, was being organized.

So, it was really around

redefining their positioning,

clarifying, uh, the problems

that they were solving,

and ul ultimately that

evolution from, uh, a kind

of single product focus to

much more of, uh, a platform.

Jonathan: For sure.

Uh, the way we tackled

that was a lot of internal

research workshops.

Um, a lot of external,

uh, market research, both

with customers and with

different market leaders.

So much, so much, so much

internal alignment, you know,

mapping kind of a platform to

products, to jobs to be done.

And then the biggest

thing was C-Suite buy-in.

the other part that we didn't

mention was that this was

all, yes, of course, because

the market was changing.

That was a big part of it.

There were European focus,

European based, but also

entry to the US market was

a big component of this.

So it was kind of two

different, uh, initiatives.

Initiative.

One was, Hey, our market

in Europe has changed.

We need to adapt to that.

We need to respond

to these competitors.

We need to rethink how

we're gonna position

and market ourselves.

Right?

That was kind of part one.

And then part two, it's

like, hey, we're entering

the US market, which by

the way, is completely

different from Europe in this

particular matter, right?

'cause it's a

legal tech company.

Obviously the laws,

regulations, et cetera, are

different country to country.

so how do we enter

the US market?

Like what is the right

position messaging there

versus Europe, right?

Which is more mature market

in this particular case.

So that was, that was

kind of a big part.

And then, the other part

was we really empowered the

product marketing team at the

company, uh, with the playbook

we created and, and, you

know, really help them kind of

accelerate, their, uh, status

and their position in the org.

Elle: Right.

So any one of those

initiatives is its own

big challenge, right?

You mentioned a lot, a lot,

a lot of internal alignment,

which is of stakeholder

management is such a big

role in product marketing.

So shocked, but not

surprised that, that, that

was so much of the effort.

And then you talked about

entering into the US market.

So just like a new market

in general, that's another

big initiative, can be

extremely challenging.

It has its own go to market

motions and a pivot from a

single platform or a single

product to a platform story.

So there's a lot

to unpack here.

Um, so just imagining,

putting myself, myself in

a listener's shoes today,

let's say that I'm a PMM

who's on a similar journey.

Walk me through the playbook.

What is step one?

How do I get started?

Craig: So this is an approach

that Jonathan and I share,

which is we really want to get

to know the team, the company,

the people if you like, um,

who are the key stakeholders,

influencers within the wider

go go-to market organization

within the company.

And I always make

assumptions that there is

going to be some level of

disagreement or misalignment,

which is something that

we have to uncover.

usually true to a certain

extent, but that was

really our starting point.

So, We had a lot of internal

interviews and we were

very deliberate in having

one-on-one interviews.

We wanted at this point to

avoid any group think or

potential influence from

senior person saying one

thing, and the slightly

kind of mid senior level

person nodding, nodding

along and, and agreeing.

We wanted to get the

perspectives from, sales,

marketing, customer

success, uh, products,

uh, senior and more kind

of on the ground as well.

So, It was really important

to have those perspectives.

But then there was also your,

your classic internal research

and the, I want you to send

us absolutely everything

that you have data dump.

So, um, one thing that we did

was prepare a sort of menu of

all the possible things that

we could find, interesting,

whether that be examples of

recorded prospect calls and

qualification calls, uh,

certain reports from your CRM.

Send us examples of

collateral that you've

put together, pitch decks,

presentations, uh, any kind

of wider company strategic

presentations as well.

Because we want the context

around are you growing, you

moving into a new market?

What is that north star

right now for you as

a wider organization?

and also any actual product

marketing frameworks.

Templates.

We want to get an

understanding of how you are

approaching product marketing

within, your organization.

So, high level,

it was very much.

I wanna get one-on-one

conversations.

I wanna dig into things that

I think sound interesting,

but then please just like,

send us all the content,

send us all the data.

Jonathan, I dunno if there's

anything else that like, you

can kind of remember, but

it was just, we just want a

tidal wave of information.

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean,

product roadmap, you know,

any kind of documentation

on the products themselves.

So like demos, key features,

benefits, positioning,

messaging, pricing,

uh, who they consider

their competitors, um,

competitor evals, uh,

battle cards, et cetera.

Literally everything you

could possibly think of.

We just wanted a massive

data dump, and just between

that data dump and the

interviews, we already started

seeing misalignment, like

probably like day three.

Craig: that was such an

interesting point because

that was something I was

just reflecting on as, as

Jonathan was talking as well,

as much as we're looking for.

The data.

We're also looking for the

gaps in the data, but even how

you are approaching a product

roadmap, for example, um, I've

worked with startups where

their product roadmap goes two

weeks out and you go, okay.

That in itself is a signal of

like a massive issue in this

organization before we've

even jumped on the first call.

So we are looking for

their approaches to

product strategy, product

marketing, et cetera.

As much as we're actually

looking for the data itself

Elle: Yeah, I'm imagining,

I don't know if you guys

remember this super old movie,

Erin Brockovich, when she's

like going through all of

the data and there's like

boxes and boxes and boxes.

I'm like, that's you guys

doing this investigation?

Jonathan: Right.

And, and just like Aaron,

when we find something that's

missing where you're like,

huh, there's pro, there's

piece A and PC, but not piece

B. Like that tells you things.

Yeah.

Craig: yeah.

Elle: Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So, I have some

questions about this.

So you mentioned the

misalignments, and I think

that it can happen so often

in the go-to-market strategy,

in the, you know, as you're

thinking about positioning.

Um, so when you guys started

to do this investigation,

how did you actually

spot the misalignment?

Like, were there any symptoms

and if there were, talk

through those a little bit.

Jonathan: Yeah, so I think the

key part here was what Craig

mentioned earlier, right?

Having independent

conversations.

So there's gonna be a

very strong bias towards,

oh, well let's just

combine these folks.

They think the

same way anyway.

Maybe it's like the CMO and

CRO, or maybe it's like,

like Craig mentioned, like

the VP of product and the

CPO, so on and so forth.

You have to resist that

urge in that pressure

because there absolutely

are differences, number one.

Number two, we, we asked

the same questions like of

course there were nuances

based on the person's

role or the person's

department, but we asked

very, very similar questions.

And what we very quickly

found out was if we asked

for example, you know,

Cynthia, hey, who's your ICP?

And we asked Bob,

who's your ICP?

We got two different answers,

which from a product marketing

perspective is kind of a

very scary thing, right?

Like ICP is pretty major.

that was kind of part one.

Part two was like, oh,

okay, well we have these

different ICPs, how are

we gonna go after them?

And again, we got very

different answers, right?

PLG, kind of this

like low touch motion.

Versus SLG.

Okay.

That, that's like

very different.

ICP very different

go-to market motion.

Then kind of aligning with

that, it's like, okay, well if

you're an SLG product, you're

probably positioning yourself

and you're probably putting

yourself in a category that's

very, very different than PLG.

So again, we had

misalignment there.

Um, it, it was basically

different teams saying

different things,

even within the teams

having inconsistencies.

you know, like Craig

mentioned, we listened

to sales pitches.

Those were different depending

on country, depending on sales

rep, depending on product.

Um, and just

internal confusion.

Like there wasn't a ton

of alignment or where

everyone was like, yes, this

is the way we're rowing.

We're all going in

the same direction.

It was like literally

like a, a, you know, a a

a classic nineties movie

where everyone rose in the

wrong direction and everyone

ends up in the river.

Right.

it was, it was a lot.

Elle: Yeah.

And then I guess once

you've spotted those

misalignments, and it sounds

like it was really key by

the way, to, have those

one-on-one conversations.

And I can totally see the

temptation to, especially from

like a timing perspective,

like you're trying to just

work a little bit faster

and more efficiently and you

think, oh, I'll just do this

whole team together, or this

group of people together.

But that's where you can.

Overlook the misalignment.

So I think that's a

really big takeaway for

me that I'm hearing from

you as a, as guidance.

So once you spot and

diagnose that misalignment

and you've done this big

investigation and you've

found the gaps and you know,

kind of everything's out in

front of you, what's next?

Like what's, what do you do

with all that information?

What's the next step?

Craig: one thing which I think

is really interesting when,

when we're diagnosing the, the

misalignment is to get real

cultural insights as well into

how the organization is run.

And you start to see how they

operate, what they consider

to be really important.

And so, for example,

working with companies that

want perfect positioning

and messaging before

they launch, that's in,

in itself an insight.

And so it makes us realize,

okay, we have some work to

do to make the point that

actually that we have to go

to market much quicker in

a small way with something

that's a little bit more

rough and ready because

actually we need to acquire

data that is lacking here.

So that in itself

gives us an insight.

And so then when we get

to the next steps, which

is okay, we've had the

one-on-one conversations,

what now happens when we start

to bring people together?

And so that's when the

workshopping really comes

into its own, but we.

We need to be conscious

that there are some voices

that may feel more confident

or louder when you're

in that group situation.

So you allow for that,

but you, you need to

be conscious of that.

And how can we,

as the external.

Consultants, advisors step

in to ensure that actually

we're also giving space to

the others, to, to more junior

folk or to those who are

just more insular and more

introverted as people, right?

Like we, we need to be

making space for all of that.

So we play mediator

and ensure that we're,

we're exploring, um, all

different perspectives.

So, you know, for example,

we spoke to some folk that

would say, well, you know, we

think the big opportunities

in the mid market, whereas

others would say, um, we

think we should be firmly,

you know, sticking to SMB.

So, you know, why is that?

And so the workshop allows

for us to kind of bring

those voices together.

And so this is when you can

start to firstly see the

reaction of others when you

go, oh, actually there are

different opinions here.

But then start to dig deep

and explore the nuance in

their opinions because it's

always, you know, someone

says this thing, but to what

extent do they believe that?

And, and that doesn't

really come out until.

The, the, the workshops,

uh, are really kind

of brought together.

So I think, you know, we

order this deliberately.

We do the one-on-one

conversations, then the

workshop comes later,

and we feel prepared

for the conversations

that need to happen.

Elle: That is such a good idea

and I love doing workshops.

I've done so many myself

as a product marketer with

my stakeholders, usually

the bulk of pm, maybe a

couple salespeople, but

it's, it can be so hard.

And I've had, I've botched

workshops where like, it

was just a huge waste of

time because I just didn't

structure it properly.

I didn't have those one-on-one

conversations ahead of time,

which I think is so smart.

So you can prepare for how

you're gonna handle these

difference of opinions, and

I think it can get so easy

to have your entire agenda

derailed because you're

debating some tiny little

minute thing over here.

So to help, help me and

the rest of the PMM world,

what does a good workshop

look like in practice?

I guess, like how

did you structure it?

You know, make sure that,

um, you're not just gathering

feedback and you're also

kind of exposing the gaps

to leadership and, and

discussing it and finding a

solution in a healthy way.

Craig: in terms of the

information gathering,

there are a few, Strategic

points to consider around

what we're actually trying

to get outta the workshop.

And so the first thing is,

okay, let's bring data, let's

bring data into this and make

sure that we're not just kind

of, you know, licking our

finger, putting it in the

air, seeing which way the

wind is blowing that day.

you know, do we have demand

gen data for, for example,

can we see where AB tests

have, have played out?

Can we get, um, sales to tell

us if particular segments

have been progressing

through the cycle much

quicker versus others who

have actually been closing?

so that's, that's kind

of the first piece.

The other piece is

around prioritization.

So when we're asking

questions around, for example.

You know, let's talk

about this segment.

What are the most

important jobs that they're

trying to accomplish?

You might get lots

of different answers

to that question.

And we are looking for answers

for us to then later on, do

the jobs to be done research.

So we, so we can kind of

cross reference that, right?

But there's also a

prioritization piece.

And so something that

we do is to deliberately

not give enough votes

to the participants.

So they're really forced

to think about the

most important answers.

So if we say, you know, out

of, out of these competitors,

who do you think are the

most important that we

should be considering?

That's one of the questions.

We will only give

them two votes.

And so the, the point of

that is, sure, you know,

we should be thinking about

five or six and, and we're

not just going to focus on

those two, but with all the

participants here, when you

are forced to really, really

think about this, which

way are you going to vote?

So.

It's about being data driven.

It's about prioritization and

then in terms of the actual

data where, you know, and,

and the, and the topics and

the questions that, that

we're looking to cover.

It's things like, you know,

what are the bias segments

that we should be looking

at and that we should be

targeting and, and what is

the data that you can use

to back that up once we have

the conversation, after, you

know, we've done the, the, the

Miro whiteboarding, um, who

are those internal champions

we should be considering?

What are their jobs

and challenges?

Your, you know, your standout

product capabilities, the

value you think you're

offering ideas around product

categorization, right?

Like, so, so those are

the topics that we would

cover, but the most

important thing is the data.

And then how do we prioritize

all of this stuff so

that we make sure we are

doing something at this

early stage to begin that

process of narrowing down

the positioning and, and

blocking out the noise.

Jonathan: Yeah.

So if you think about it,

right, we've had these

one-on-one conversations.

We've already asked a lot

of these questions, right?

So what segments

should we go after?

Who are your main

competitors, et cetera.

We've primed the

pump, so to speak.

So all these folks have,

if they didn't have ideas

before, they've definitely

thought about it since

they come to the workshop.

One, we present, like

Craig mentioned, all

the data we have, right?

So from the demand gen

team, from the market,

so on and so forth.

Any, any internal surveys

they've run, et cetera, right?

So we present all of the

data, say, Hey, this is what

we know factually to be true.

And then by the way, here

are the different topics

that we want to dive into.

We want to get internal

direction on, you know,

is there alignment here?

Is there misalignment?

For the most part, there's

typically misalignment.

Right.

It just kind of par for

the course, but the, the

point of this is not to

make decisions, right?

The point is for us to have

directional, kind of like

Craig mentioned, directional

feedback and directional

guidance into, okay, now

that we're going to these,

to customers and, and,

and talking to them and

doing market research and

competitive research and so

on and so forth, where do

we focus in and, and how do

we see the alignment, not

just internal alignment,

but alignment from like

leadership to the market?

Because if there's

misalignment there, now

you're talking about,

okay, there's internal

misalignment, but there's also

misalignment with the market.

So again, it helps

us kind of figure out

where do we go next?

Elle: Yeah.

Got it.

Okay.

So helpful.

And after you've worked

through a lot of that

internally and you've kind

of moved into this external,

you know, market research.

So tell me more about that,

I guess, like where did

you start for that external

market research, right?

Because you had all

that internal, the big

investigation that you

did internally and all the

one-on-one conversations,

but then when it turn,

when it came to bringing

in that, you know, here's,

here's how, you know, the,

c-level point of view or

whoever it is to the market.

How did you get

that market insight?

Um, what channels did you use?

Craig: I could probably talk

about this way too much on

LinkedIn, but, um, customer

and buyer interviews,

uh, I love, I love them.

there is so much nuance that

you can capture when you

are hearing someone express

frustrations and pains

around the challenges and

obstacles with particular

tasks and jobs that they

are trying to accomplish.

And so it means that you

can, you can identify the

difference between here is a

regular job where they have

the pain, versus here is a

slightly less regular job.

That's still regular, but

actually is really painful.

And when you look at the

existing solutions that

they use to try and get

this job done, they are

completely insufficient and.

When you hear these pains,

these emotions, uh, start

to kind of come out.

Then you, you use that

as like a, okay, I'm,

I'm honing in on that.

I'm going to dig down more

and, and understand, you

know, a lot more about

this, because I think

we're, we're stumbling upon.

Potentially new information

that the customer hasn't

articulated to us yet, but

actually is really fundamental

in pivoting, positioning.

one thing which I notice is

when I work with founders

and startups that come

from a background of really

knowing their industry,

they almost see customer

researchers either slightly

secondary or potentially

even a bit redundant because,

Hey, I used to do this job.

I come from this background.

I get it, I understand it.

We don't need to

talk to customers.

I, you know, it'd be, it

would be great to learn,

you know, what online social

media channels they're on,

so we can target them later.

But what I always say is,

yeah, you understand 95%

of it, but there's 5% of

stuff that you don't know.

And also things have

shifted since you started

your, your company.

So, Customer interviews

is, is always something

that I say to founders,

look, it's time consuming.

And often the most difficult

thing is getting people

on the phone that you're

looking to speak to, but

get the perspective of both

your existing customers

and then also buyers that

aren't your customers.

Because buyers can

tell you what are they

researching right now.

Whereas customers will sort

of have a bias around like,

this is why I am staying, or

I decided to stay with you.

and I can think back to

my previous problems, but

you're still getting two very

interesting perspectives that,

uh, that can be very helpful,

uh, and, and very insightful.

So, yes, so the kind of, the

first piece really around,

um, customer research,

I'm, I'm, I would say is,

uh, sort of non-negotiable

Elle: Yeah, I love that.

And like you, just as you

were speaking, uh, 'cause

I've had that, I've had that

happen in my career so many

times where a leader in the

company or a product leader

felt like, I know this just

as well as the customer.

I don't need to talk

to the customer.

And it's so frustrating

as a PMM 'cause I'm like,

that's great, but you

don't know everything.

And you've been in

now this job for.

However many number of

years, not that one.

So it's can be

really frustrating.

uh, so it just made

me think of a pro tip.

If you're, you know, pmms out

there who are interviewing

for their next in-house

role, like you should ask

them how are you getting

your customer insights?

Where do they come from as a

question that you should be

evaluating them to make sure

that they have an alignment

and understanding around,

like supporting you, being a

PMM and wanting to do that.

Customer insight and

customer interviewing.

So anyway, more questions

for you though Craig

and Jonathan about this.

when you're doing the customer

insights in the customer

interviews, sometimes they

talk and talk and talk,

which is great, but how

do you separate what's

actually meaningful versus

just like noise in info that

you're getting from them?

Jonathan: Yeah, so I

think part of it is just

having comprehensive

research to begin with.

So of course, customer

research is important,

but beyond that, like

competitive research.

So we did a lot of

competitive research.

We forced, you know, we,

Craig talked about the,

um, limited votes, right?

So we forced the team to say,

okay, who are our current

competitors based on data?

So if you do a win-loss

analysis, which they had done.

Who are our top, you know,

three to four competitors

on top of that, who are

our future competitors?

So we're here today, we're

one platform shop, or

sorry, one product shop.

We wanna move to this

platform positioning

fair, but that opens us

up to new competitors.

Right.

Okay.

So who are the two to

three competitors that

we're gonna see kind of

in the, in the future?

so doing that competitive

research, we did a ton of

other research on, you know,

customer surveys, sales calls.

Uh, we looked at the

industries and the market.

So, um, different markets had

different, uh, legal needs,

legal requirements, et cetera.

So as we started kind of

amassing all this data,

to your point, it was, it

was overwhelming, right?

There's just so much data.

If you look at just the

US like 50 different

states with 50 different

laws, so on and so forth.

So what we really looked for

were kind of recurring themes.

So.

you know, are there like

three to four topics that

keep coming up in terms

of jobs to be done, right?

Maybe it's the same two

jobs to be done with

like a slight variation

for this other segment.

we also looked for

differences, right?

We talked about Aaron

Brockovich and kind of

like, Hey, there's document

A, no, document B, and

there's document C. So same

thing like, you know, in

internally we think A, but

customers are tone as B.

So is there kind of

that misalignment?

Are there differences between

that customer feedback

and internal direction?

as we start looking at

competitors, are they all

moving in the same direction?

What was really interesting

for us is we could literally,

like, we literally mapped

out our, the, I think it was

what top seven competitors?

Something like that.

So we looked at the top

seven competitors and

said, Hmm, interesting.

Here's who, who, they're

like the segment they're

approaching, here's the

persona they're targeting

and how they position.

And we saw a lot of

commonality, which made

like the white space for us,

like super obvious, right?

you know, that,

that opportunity

for differentiation.

So I think for

us it was really.

Look at the, the white

space, look at the common

themes and look at for,

those differences that,

to spot that misalignment.

'cause that's where

the, the money is.

That's where the insights are.

Elle: Okay.

I got a question for you guys.

I'm guessing based on just

like when I think you guys

conducted or, or had this

engagement with a client,

probably didn't use any, but

like, did you use any AI tools

when you're doing some of this

analysis and research and like

trying to identify the themes?

And if you didn't, if you

were gonna do this again,

would you, and if you would,

what tools would you use?

Or if you wouldn't, why

wouldn't you use any AI tools?

Jonathan: Yeah.

So I think the answer

is it's complicated.

Uh, I think Craig and

I will, we'll both

give you some examples.

one, like client privacy

and client, you know,

proprietary information,

et cetera, is number one.

Like, that's the number

one thing we respect, with

both of our companies.

Like we we're both very,

very serious about that.

Uh, number two, there are

some things that are public.

So for example, one of the

things we did was look at.

Um, G two reviews,

Capterra, et cetera.

So what we did is, you

know, we basically grabbed

the pages for our top seven

competitors and for our,

for our own company, our own

products, and said, okay, you

know, chat GBT or perplexity

or whatever, LLM of choice,

find the top five themes

of positives and top five

themes for negatives, right?

So we didn't have to look

through hundreds of comments,

hundreds of reviews.

You know, the LLM

did that for us.

That was huge.

And that gave us a sense

of like, Hey, when these

customers are buying this

product, sure they're buying

it for all these 15,000

features or this price point

or whatever, but what are the

top three to five things that

actually move the needle?

And by the way, what are the

top three to five things that

are just a major pain where

we could potentially position

ourselves competitively?

So that was one way

where AI came in.

Super handy.

Uh, Craig, not sure if

you want to dive into

a different example.

Craig: Yeah, I mean, I have,

well, we have strong opinions

about this because, um, you

know, and we, and we've, we've

tried it, we, we, we've tried

AI to see what it can do.

And, uh, I mean, one

example was around

competitive analysis.

I'm, I'm a little bit

nervous about using AI

for, for certain kind of

strategic research exercises

because, it is just like the

hallucinations are crazy and.

I mean, we did.

You know, a few examples

where we said, okay, can you

compare, you know, these tools

and, uh, you know, do, do they

have particular feature sets?

and either they would

say they do when they,

they don't, or they say

they don't when they do.

And so, you know, the follow

up prompt is by the way, that

competitor does have that.

Oh, yes, you're

absolutely correct.

Thanks for pointing out.

I'm like, you are welcome.

I'm here.

I'm here to help you.

You know, thanks, hun.

They're like, cool, awesome.

So I'll just do this manually.

and then again with, you

know, competitor analysis.

It's not just saying, do they

have these features versus

us, you know, what is the

depth and the quality of this?

What are the

capabilities, right?

Like, that's,

that's so crucial.

And again, I think it's

quite difficult to rely

on LLMs to, really capture

that in the fullest.

So I think.

You know, Jonathan makes a

great point, which is to say

for certain things it's great.

For other things, be careful.

and so for the really

strategic positioning

stuff, once you've got

the information and you

are confident on the

information, and then

you can plug it in, cool.

But once you are asking an LLM

to go and do the research and

go and find the information

and then interpret it, I, I'm,

that's when I get nervous.

Jonathan: yeah, I think

the, the scalpel analogy

is a good one here.

Like you don't wanna use

LLM as like kind of the

mallet or you know, the

hammer to just like do it

all, but it, in addition to

that G two example, right?

So we were trying to find

pricing for one of our

competitors that didn't

display it publicly.

I go into Chachi, bt or

perplexity, whatever, search

for it, and it pulls up like

this obscure blog that's like,

I don't know, a year old.

And someone in the

comment said, oh, I

actually paid this.

So that like, amazing, right?

Like huge, uh, finding

pricing on like random

websites that we would've

never found, never go, like

it would've been on page, I

don't know, 300 of Google.

that was really helpful or.

I don't know.

Um, competitor, like we

think the competitor, this

competitor specifically

targets Enterprise.

Is there any mention of

them targeting mid-market?

Oh, they actually did a

webinar last week, which

we didn't see anywhere, but

it, like, it caught it on

their LinkedIn social post.

Right.

Which is like things

like that where we can

just like find stuff out

really, really quickly

and really interestingly,

um yeah, exactly.

Needle in haystack

situations where honestly

it's just more efficient.

Like, could Craig and I go

and look at a LinkedIn and

like go through last 15

posts over the last 20 days?

Sure.

We'll perplexity find

it faster or chat gt.

Yeah.

Elle: Yeah.

Wow.

Okay.

That's helpful.

That makes a lot of sense.

I totally agree.

I've had like really similar

experiences with those tools.

Uh, okay.

So a big turning point for

this and this poll initiative

that you guys, um, pursued

with this client was that

you moved from single product

to platform storytelling.

So talk through that.

Shift in, um, would love

to hear like what does like

good platform messaging

actually look like?

Craig: So when it comes

to this, it, it is always

a very interesting point

in any positioning and

messaging exercises

when you are starting to

shift towards messaging.

But you are, you can't really

entirely run away for, it's

not, you know, positioning's

done messaging, right?

They, they're both

always going to to be

influencing each other.

So the first thing we

consider is, okay at this.

Point from what we know and

the work that we've done, what

do we identify as the most

important jobs that we should

be solving for the segment?

and this is where a lot of

the research that we've done

starts to get pulled together.

So for example, you know,

one thing to consider

is even when we want to

prioritize key competitors

that we are considering,

those competitors are more

relevant depending on the

job that we're talking about.

If you are doing this job,

here are a set of tools

that, and alternatives

that you are using.

So actually the, the, the

positioning context will

slightly change because we are

saying, we're comparing you to

this, for this job, actually,

we're comparing ourselves

to this other different

job or, um, alternative or,

or, or competitor, right?

So like this is where, you

know, often I see startups

talk about like, okay,

we are going to frame

our messaging around.

Core benefits or, or get

really hung up on the, the

phrase value propositions.

And I really try and avoid

the phrase value propositions.

And this, this might be

a slightly controversial

point, but I think it gets

so distracting and it moves

us out away from being a

bit more mechanical about

how we construct messaging.

So I, you know, Jonathan and

I were very pur purposeful in

saying, look, we need to get

clear on what we're actually

helping our customers solve.

So the situation for

us was very unique.

We had a tech startup

that was catching up

with other competitors.

And so there were lots of

new products that they were

developing, which was part of

the reason we were moving from

single product to platform.

So.

We sort of had to both

consider the product

first as well as the job.

So it meant that we

were appreciating

both perspectives.

Typically, I would

say job, right?

What are the key, most

unique, most impactful product

capabilities solving that

we sort of had to make sure

that we weren't ignoring

other products as well.

So it was just, it was just

part of the psyche, but

it's, it didn't fundamentally

change our process.

So making sure that, you

know, at the top we were

highlighting the key

jobs that we're solving.

Now let's start to consider,

okay, how are they currently

solving those jobs?

What are the downsides?

And then what are the upsides

of them using us instead,

and how can we prove that?

So that, that was really a, a

big shift in how they thought

about messaging as well.

And so as much as we were

doing the mechanics around

reconstructing their messaging

approach, it was also a bit

of a cultural shift as well

that we had to, that we

had to take into account.

Elle: Yeah, so you had these

like jobs to be done and

it sounds like you mapped

them to both like the um,

your product or platform,

the company, your client,

and then also what's the

alternative to doing this job?

Like if I had to do this

task, task, my option is

to the status quo or you

know, the, this platform.

So, which I think is so smart.

And I know you mentioned

that a lot of like startups

in your experience.

Um, they do this where they

get hung up on the benefits

and the value propositions.

It's not just the startups,

it's not, I've been at

these big, big companies.

They do it too.

Craig: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Elle: Yeah.

Okay.

So when you're trying to

build, when you're trying

to build out, if I was a pm

m and I was trying to build

out this like jobs to be

done framework for my, you

know, working on my platform

story, I guess like, do you

literally create like a table?

Like do you plot it against,

is that how you do it?

I guess like talk a little

bit more about that process

just so I make sure I'm

understanding how to do it.

Jonathan: Yeah.

So one caveat for this client

though, just to make sure,

'cause there's what we did

for the client and then what's

the best practice, and those

aren't always necessarily

the same thing, right?

So for this client.

They already had like products

in market, and then they had

products that were coming

down the line in the next,

what, three to six months.

And then we also had

competitors that had a

combination of products.

So the way we approach this,

like I think Craig and I

always, always, always say,

start with jobs to be done.

Like a hundred percent.

The reality in this situation

was if you did that, you

would only consider the,

the current product set.

You wouldn't consider

future products, number one.

Number two, you wouldn't

consider what competitors

have done, right?

The different products

competitors have done.

So what it, it's almost like,

you know, we're comparing, um,

I don't know, we're comparing,

this is gonna be food analogy.

So for anyone who knows me,

that's, that's kinda my go-to.

Like you're comparing

burgers to burgers,

which is great, but our

competitor, they actually

sell fries and a drink.

Elle: Yeah.

Jonathan: We need to

start thinking about how

do we, like, what is the

way in which customers or

prospects want to buy, right?

In terms of, yes, combination

of products, right?

Burger and fries, but

also how do they get

to a decision, right?

Are they going and asking

like their local food

blogger, where's the

best burger and fries?

Or are they just going

out themselves and

trying different places?

So again, it's, it's kind

of like taking a holistic

approach to this process.

but beyond that, like,

yes, of course started

with the jobs to be done.

Um, looked at competition,

worked with the product

management team to identify

like, Hey, here are the key

products for not just current

or, sorry, key features,

not just for the current

product, but for what's

coming down the pipeline.

and then tied kind of the

customer interviews we

had and those jobs to be

done that were mentioned.

You know, to those products.

Um, of course we asked for

like technical aspects of

their jobs, kind of their

goals, outcomes, status quo

for folks who aren't familiar

with, with jobs to be done.

Right.

those are kind of the the

big things we, we did.

And then we mapped

kind of those features

to the products.

Elle: I love that.

So helpful.

Okay, so then once you

have that framework and

you have, um, did you have

to get like buy-in from

senior leadership on that?

Like when you showed it

in that, I'm guessing you

had some kind of readout

or discussion, were they

like, no, that's not right.

Or were they like, kind

of what was the reaction?

And as a pmm m how do you,

how do you handle the reaction

if it's not what you want,

want it to be or hope it is?

Craig: I, I think.

We were really determined

to avoid that reaction.

And so we thought, what,

what do we have to do

to make sure that, that

that doesn't happen?

And, um, I, the thing is there

were, there were a lot of

eyes on, on this project, uh,

and a lot of, uh, opinions.

So we, we knew that we had to

go back to the, the one-on-one

approach way before any kind

of final recommendations,

final messaging, positioning,

um, you know, kind of

presentation or, or delivery.

Uh, we almost wanted that

final piece to be a formality.

We actually wanted

everyone to know

everything about it before.

Everyone jumps on a call

to say, this is what,

what we've decided and

what we're going with.

So, uh, we identified the,

the, the key stakeholders,

the, the most influential

folk that we knew we

needed to get that buy-in.

And so we organized one-on-one

calls to kind of talk

through, um, our thinking.

And I think Jonathan

and I were clear on

the components to both

positioning and messaging,

where we felt we have to

stick to our guns on this

because this is just right.

Especially where the data

was, was proving that,

that we were correct.

there, there's always a

point where you have to

consider, okay, this, they're

suggesting, I don't know,

a, a, a change, for example,

to a specific phrasing.

or, uh, they want to

highlight a particular job

more than the other and,

uh, et cetera, et cetera.

Sometimes you have to

accept that it's not a

hundred percent to what you

would like, but if this.

Helps move things

forward and you can

contextualize positioning

and messaging as a journey.

As as a process you will

go to market, you are going

to validate this and you

are going to get feedback

that will ultimately tell

you whether the decision

you're making right now

is correct or incorrect.

And in fact, what we are

saying is the way forward

then, then so be it.

And let's just agree on

this approach now and just

go to market straight away.

The thing that we don't

want to do is just make

this a really academic

discussion and argument

about why this way, that way.

And we just, we just

need to kind of move on.

So, um, so the one-on-one

calls were really important.

The other thing as well

that we're really big on

is when it comes to a final

presentation that really

talks about a new direction

on positioning and messaging

that we are equipping.

Those senior folk to then

deliver those presentations

internally because as

much as we are fine,

Jonathan and I doing that,

uh, internally, it's not

gonna have that impact.

And so this is where you

have to look at where is

that soft power internally

and how can we ensure that

we leverage that as part of

the dissemination process.

Jonathan: Yeah.

And, and the, the one big

thing, like as consultants is

like you have, first of all,

you're brought in, right?

Like someone is paying you

for your opinion, literally

like your expertise,

but also your opinion.

So kind of l to your, to your

question of like, you know,

how do you get that buy-in?

Yes, of course.

It's like bringing up all the

insights, bringing up, you

know, what the market said,

you know, kind of getting

internal alignment, et cetera.

But it's also playing the role

of consultant, which is look.

L If you wanna launch

with a platform, that's

fine, but here's, here

are the negatives, right?

One, you're gonna have

more competition, right?

You're gonna be competing with

point solutions and platforms.

if you go with a lead

product positioning,

you're more competing

with point, you know,

individual point solutions.

That's the kind of co, you

know, consultative approach

that you as a consultant have

to take with your clients.

And when you do that, then

you get a lot more buy and a

lot more trust because you're

saying, look, at the end of

the day, like let's say L

you're, you're the CE, you're

making the decision L, right?

Like we're, we're not gonna

tell you one way or the other,

but what we are gonna tell

you is, Hey, here are the

pitfalls with decision A. Here

are the pitfalls with decision

B and the benefits of A

versus B, and how that stacks

up in the market, right?

So a lot of what we do

is like, it's not just.

An internal decision.

It's what is the

market telling us?

What are competitors doing and

what are the pros and cons of

the entire kind of situation?

So when you go in with that

kind of consultative approach,

you have the one-on-ones, you

talk to the influential people

and, and kind of get them,

like, get their pre reactions

and incorporate that into,

into your final presentation.

Then it becomes a, hey,

we're, we're all kind of

gathered here just to kind

of like talk about something

we already agreed on versus

like, Hey, let's do like

this big reveal, right?

It's like we're not

like magicians doing

this big reveal.

Like, no, no, no.

Everyone's seen the act.

Everyone knows the bunny

comes outta the hat.

We're just, it's a

formality at that point.

Elle: I am so glad that

you mentioned that and

explained it that way.

And it's funny because I

actually advise my team to

act like a consultant whenever

we're doing, wherever we're

embarking on a new product

initiative, new research

initiative, whatever it is,

and they're kind of afraid

to go to the, it's usually

the product team to go to the

product team and to say, you

know, here's what we think.

And I'm like, you need to

look at this as if you are

a out an outside consultant.

Don't be biased as the

uh, PMM for company X.

Go do the market research

and come with your data.

Here's what I found from

customers, from competitors,

from analysts, from

the, from the market.

Um, so I, I I love that.

That's such a, I think it's

such a practical approach.

okay, so, um, let's

talk about the final

step of this playbook.

I guess you've got

this amazing research

that you've done.

You've brought everybody

along for the ride, doing

all of the one-on-ones,

doing the workshops, doing

the investigation, doing

this jobs to be done.

Like wrap us up

here, bring us home.

What happens in the end?

Jonathan: the, the beautiful

thing is that we created kind

of a two step approach is one

is we had all the artifacts.

So like of course we created

a position in Canvas.

Of course we created messaging

canvas, so on and so forth.

But we also had presentations

that explained the

logic and the thought

process and the data.

So we always talk about

storytelling when it comes

to product marketing and I

think, and, and Craig and

I have very strong feelings

about storytelling, but.

Storytelling in

product marketing.

Like especially if you, like,

you look at LinkedIn or any

kind of like the quote unquote

gurus, they always talk about

storytelling in terms of

like, oh, what we present to

customers or to prospects.

That's great and that's

definitely needed.

But internally, when you're

pitching, Hey, we're gonna

shift, we're gonna do like

a fundamental company shift.

Like this is a, like a

literal, like the world

is, is tilting a different

direction kind of shift.

You need to say why you

need to tell the story and

like, data points are great,

but what is the story?

What is the rationale?

Why are you doing this?

So that was a really big

part of what Craig and I did.

I think we compliment each,

complimented each other well,

I think we did a combination

of data story, customer

insights, market insights,

competitive, et cetera.

Um, that was a

really big part.

The other part we did,

which uh, you know, I

think was really helpful

is we kept spotlighting

the product marketing team

and saying, look, this is

step one, but if you want

this to actually work.

Execution is where this

comes to life, right?

And you're gonna have to

entrust and kind of leverage

a product marketing team

to steer the ship here.

the, the other part we did

was we, we, we told them like,

look, this is again part one,

part two and three is go test

this with demand gen. See

what works, what doesn't.

And then I really, Craig,

if you don't mind, like

I was really blown away

with, um, a messaging

guide that Craig created.

Um, I had, I, like, we've all

created messaging guides in

the traditional sense of like,

Hey, here's your messaging.

But what he created like

really enabled the team.

I'd love for you

to talk about that.

'cause I thought

that was so unique.

Craig: Thanks, Jonathan.

I'll give you $20 later.

It's just another bribe.

This is how I get

people to compliment me.

I just pay them.

but um, look, I think, um, so

the thing is, I think when.

You have experience working

with product marketing

teams and you have in-house

experience like Jonathan and

I, I think you can almost

get to a point where you sort

of dismiss frameworks and

templates as being, you know,

kind of slightly unimportant.

And we, we get so

philosophical and we get so

deep into, you know, the,

the cultural importance and

the politics of it, of like,

why is, why is the product

marketing in this organization

really not driving forward?

But sometimes there are

still some kind of practical

gaps in the implementation.

And so something which.

I notice is when we have

put together a position in

Canvas, here is the messaging

framework, you know, to us,

probably because we're so

in it all the time, we go,

yeah, like that's all we need.

Like, sure, we like go to

town, but then it's like,

okay, but how do I write copy?

How, how do I translate this

to, you know, to, to some copy

that I put into a campaign

on, on this landing page, on

the homepage, uh, for, uh,

cold emails to prospects.

And so, you know, something

I wanted to do is to say,

look, if you don't have a

copywriter internally, because

by the way, I also have a

very strong opinion around

like how underrated B2B

copywriters are and also how

underrated the opportunity

of, uh, kind of brand

differentiation is and how.

Much product marketers and

brands should be collaborating

on that process within

positioning and messaging.

That's another tangent,

and I could go to town

on that another day.

But in the meantime, if you

are a smaller startup or

you are a growth stage, um,

scale up you and you don't

have an internal copywriter,

like what do you do?

And so I wanted to put

together a guide that

was quite formulaic.

So how, how do you

write a headline?

How do you take a capability

and add a benefit?

What does that look like?

Um, if you want to talk

about specific outcomes, how

can you ground that outcome

by also speaking about the

product in a way that makes

it easy to understand?

Because often I look at

messaging that really,

it's either very vague

and it's very ambitious,

and I understand that

because it's the sense of

keep on asking why, why

is this thing important?

Why, why, why bec Because the

company wants to grow faster

and people wanna be happier.

And you go, great.

Oh, that's a great

lead message.

You know, let's sell

this brand new disruptive

CRM or make people

happier with cr, right?

So.

There are building

blocks to a message

that lands with a buyer.

And so start with a capability

or start with the thing your

product does that is unique,

then justify how there is

a benefit to using that.

And to me, I see benefits

as what is this short

term positive impact that

is source of measurable,

calculable, palpable that

you can see straight away.

Then the outcomes are

slightly longer term,

more strategic, right?

Then we can build those steps

to get to that point, but not

unless you've grounded it.

And so I wanted to really

explain that in the

messaging guide and pro

and provide like formulas

in how you can use the

components of this messaging

framework to actually write

clear, compelling copy,

Elle: That is so brilliant.

If you have that messaging

guide in a template that

Craig: drop it into dms.

Jonathan: There you go.

Elle: we can use it as

a lead gen tool for your

consultancy and we can

put it in the show notes.

Craig: Good idea.

Jonathan: Yeah, there you go.

Elle: I'm just throwing

it out there, you know,

sometimes I got good ones.

Okay, so you guys have

delivered some really golden

advice here and I just want

to summarize what I think

I've heard as the playbook.

So tell me if

I've got it wrong.

There's the.

The big investigation

that you guys did.

Right.

And diagnosing the

misalignments, getting the

big data dump, um, around,

uh, around how the company

views themselves in the market

and what the product can

do and all that good stuff.

And then you did the.

Internal workshops, maybe the

external homework, maybe that

maybe there was like done in

parallel some of those things.

Maybe like the, all the

research and maybe there

were a couple workshops,

but there were workshops

and there was investigation

internally and externally.

And then you worked on

the actual, okay, well

what is the story here?

How are we moving

from a single product

to a platform story?

What are those jobs to be done

and what are the alternatives?

How are the competitors

come into play here with

these jobs to be done?

and then you had another

discussion and aligning that

with the senior leaders.

And I think Jonathan, as you

were saying, that you wanted

to, um, give them a, here

are the option A, option B,

option C, whatever they are.

Here are the pros and cons

to those as a, you know,

coming in as that consultant.

and then you brought it home

by empowering the PMM team and

the marketing teams on with

the messaging guide and like,

here's how you do it, here's

how you can take all this.

Wonderful stuff that we gave

you and take it to market.

Did I miss anything?

Craig: Backdrop.

Jonathan: Yeah, I

think that was great.

Craig: That was

Jonathan: outta 10.

Elle: Awesome.

Craig: awesome.

Elle: It was amazing.

It makes me like, wanna

go, makes me wanna go

write a platform story now,

like with the framework.

Okay.

So such a powerful process.

I have one more question

for you guys before we move

on to the next segment.

what is like one piece of

advice that you have for a

pm m who's like never done

this before and they're

just getting started on

moving from a single product

story to a platform story.

Craig: I can kick off.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Go for it.

Craig: it is going to be

one of these annoying,

it depends, um, um, oh,

the land of nuance here.

Um, I think one

question I ask.

Sometimes to founders is

does this need to be a

separate product or is

this really an extension

of your existing tool?

Existing platform?

Sure.

We can have conversations

around what the, the

pricing strategy looks like.

What are you

offering for free?

What, what is a bolt on?

Right?

But if we park that to one

side, I think sometimes

there is a tendency to want

to build out a product suite

because it, it, it sort of

just feels like the, the

next step, without quite

understanding the, the use

case and also what is the, the

journey of existing customers

or prospective customers.

So the first thing I would ask

is, are you at an early stage?

Are you at a later stage?

Like, what does, what

does your product

roadmap look like?

It, does this make sense

as a separate, um, product?

You know, um, I think

other things as well, like

what, what is the goal?

Are you acquiring

new customers?

Potentially?

Are you moving into a new

segment with this new product?

Is this for

existing customers?

And so is the opportunity

more cross-sell, upsell?

Um, and I think these are are

really important questions

to consider before you go,

alright, we want to go to

platform positioning because

platform positioning doesn't

necessarily make sense.

And like, to be really

frank, it, it, it's,

it's more difficult.

As soon as you go to platform

positioning, it's hard.

It's harder to, to

stand out, right?

and I say this with a lot of.

Sympathy with, product

marketers and tech companies

that, that are platforms.

It, it, ultimately, it is

something that, that is part

of the long-term growth story.

Look at Stripe, right?

Like when they started out,

it was simple online payments

for software developers

working at some online store,

like it was a really simple

use case and proposition.

Today, Stripe is financial

infrastructure for the, I

Elle: like.

what does

Craig: like.

What is, yeah.

But, but, but I am sure that

their product marketers have

done the research to go like

this really encapsulates it.

When you, when you go

and, and look at the, the

headlines for, um, you know,

Salesforce and HubSpot and

they're saying, grow better

with us, grow faster with us.

You just, you know, it's easy

I think for product marketers,

especially those of us that

have some experience in

the early stages to go, oh,

come on, be more specific.

So I really do have sympathy

with it, but it really

makes the point of platform

positioning only makes sense

if, if part of a broader

strategy where building out

a product suite to serve

new segments, new markets is

actually a natural progression

in your growth story now.

So do it when you

almost have to,

Jonathan: Yeah.

And the other nuance is like,

'cause I love that you, you

talked about like, think

about the strategy first.

The other part of that is

what is the business strategy?

Meaning if, if you're a

startup, for example, is

your goal to raise next round

of funding is your goal to

blitz the market and like

hit up market penetration?

That's your goal.

You want to increase a CV,

you're trying to get acquired.

So you want like NRR or GRR

to like, you wanna maximize

those because guess what,

when you shift to a platform,

generally speaking, your

ac, your A CB goes up.

What does that mean?

It slows down

your sales cycle.

S so right.

And, and then also

potentially it means more

cross sells and upsells

for your current customers.

To, to Craig's point.

So from a strategic lens,

like you not only have

to think about why are we

making the shift, but what

is the impact it's gonna

have on our financials,

on our sales cycle, on

our, on our sales team.

Right.

because the other component

is, and I think Craig and I,

I'm sure Al you, you as well

have been at many startups

where you had a customer

success team, not an account

management team or vice versa.

And those are very

different scenarios where

you're like, Hey, we're

selling this one product.

We need like account,

like we need customer

success folks just to

help them adopt a product.

Cool.

And then you suddenly

shift to this platform

positioning and you're

selling multiple products.

And these folks that

are good educators are

not good salespeople.

And you're telling them, Hey,

Mr. And Mrs. Customer success

manager, you need to sell

the, this cross sell product.

And they're like,

whoa, whoa, whoa.

I'm not a sales person.

You need an account

management team.

So again, like these

are all nuances and,

and considerations that.

As a startup, you, or scale

up or whatever company,

honestly, like, you really

have to think about does this

make sense and does this help

us achieve our goals next

quarter, next year, whatever.

Because the worst thing

you would want as a

product marketer is to

just nail the heck out of

your platform positioning.

Like, just be honestly

like an incredible job.

Everyone goes to your website,

they buy it, they love

it, and then you realize,

hey, um, so our sales

cycle slowed down by 50%.

We didn't hit our acv,

our, our A RR targets for

the quarters, so we're

not actually gonna be able

to get series B funding.

And the companies

weren't gonna run

Elle: oh.

Jonathan: like

Elle: Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Yes.

Such great advice.

Awesome.

Thank you so much

Craig and Jonathan.

I loved this case study.

Really appreciate you

guys taking the time

to dig through this.

All right.

And now it's time for our

next segment of the show,

the messaging critique.

So this is the fun part where,

uh, Jonathan and Craig as

guests on my show, you guys

get to, uh, pick a company

and we get to critique.

Real world messaging as the

product marketing experts.

Um, so before we get

started, I wanna quickly walk

through the rules as always.

so once you reveal the

company, you guys are

gonna talk through who

they are, what they do, who

their target audience is.

then you're gonna tell

me, um, what you're loving

about the messaging, what

makes it stand out, um,

maybe something you wish the

product marketer would've

done differently, as they were

building out the messaging.

And then lastly, we will do.

A quick creative brainstorm on

how the product marketing team

can take it to the next level.

All right, so Jonathan Craig,

reveal who is the company

we are critiquing today.

Craig: Roll.

Um, so, uh, a, a, uh, a

startup that I've noticed

recently, uh, it's called,

uh, met, they're actually

based in London and it's

a data security platform

that basically helps.

Companies within their

own, SaaS tech stack

to automatically detect

and secure any sensitive

data that might be in

those applications.

And so it would be sensitive

personal data, kind of

personal information.

It could be health

information, financial, uh,

but it also could be stuff

like intellectual property.

And so.

As you are a fast-growing

company, and especially

because you are implementing

kind of AI across the

board, it just means that

you can lose control of

your data very quickly.

So this very quickly,

uh, identifies surfaces

that data that is, um,

you know, potentially,

risky, critical, important

needs to be, protected.

Um, some of the

information is redacted.

You can ensure that

certain people don't have

access to it, et cetera.

So,

Elle: Very handy in

today's day and age.

Um, so for those of

you who wanna follow

along, it's met.io.

It's M-E-T-O-M-I c.io.

Okay.

So walk us through

the messaging.

Jonathan: So in terms of

the messaging, so one, just

for context, so they're

targeting security teams

at companies that handle

sensitive information, right?

Because there's just

more opportunity there.

So think like classic

tech companies, you know,

revolt, checkout.com,

oyster, et cetera.

Um, and then also just

companies that are growing

really quickly, right?

Because they're gonna feel

the pain more of, Hey, we

have all this data, now

we have an influx of data.

Where do we save it?

Where do, or how

do we protect it?

How do we secure

it, et cetera.

So generally speaking, it's

kind of tech companies that

fit neatly within their

ICP, um, and then most

likely kind of like security

teams, product management

teams, that kind of thing.

Um, in terms of the messaging

itself, they really lean on

a specific use case, which is

preventing data oversharing

and AI deployments, which

I think it's something

you can really like a, a

really specific problem

that you can kind of imagine

as you're rolling out ai.

Of course, AI has access

in a, in an ideal world

to all this data, but.

Do we really want

it to have access to

all this data, right?

Do I want it to have my

social security number?

Probably not, right?

so the messaging

is really clear.

It says Detect sensitive

data in your SaaS tools.

And if you look at, if

you kind of go down the

page, the messaging is kind

of like a story, right?

So.

it builds over time.

So it starts from that

specific capability, and

then it kind of goes to

that broader outcome, which

is accelerate AI adoption.

Which by the way, uh, for

folks looking at the page, if

you flip that, if you start

with accelerate AI adoption,

isn't that the most like

blase generic term, right?

Like you would

know you, right?

You would have no idea.

But the fact that it's, that

it's at the end now, it's

like, okay, we understand

exactly what you're doing

and now it makes sense.

And I'm like, oh, okay.

Yeah.

I could see how you accelerate

AI adoption with this tool

because you're helping

me ensure my, like there

are no security issues

or data privacy issues.

Right.

Um, so, so I think that makes

a lot of sense and it just

really like contextualizes

that value and, and those,

those kind of outcomes and

benefits by starting with

product capabilities and

then going to kind of like

the more aspirational,

um, kind of message.

Not sure Craig, if you

would add anything there.

Craig: Uh, be beautifully

says, yeah, it, and, and

it goes back to a previous

conversation that, you

know, that we were having.

when you start with the really

big aspirational headline, um.

The irony is that you are not

just competing with so much

within your existing category.

You then end up competing

across categories.

So if you have, you know,

accelerate AI adoption or you

have another, um, you know,

lead positioning on, on your

website that says, you know,

um, 10 x, 10 x your growth.

What, are you an accountancy

Elle: Yeah, yeah,

Craig: crm?

Like, are you, are

you climate tech?

Are you product like

you could be anything.

And so you are pointlessly

making yourself exposed to

more competitors that have

decided to be specific and

it all, ultimately, that

always comes down to the

fear of leaving money on the

table by not going after,

Jonathan: Yes.

Craig: One single segment

and use case where, by

the way, the tam of that

segment is still really big,

but because it's not like.

Tens of billions, you think,

oh no, I, you know, we've

gotta get to that point.

So, um, so I think,

you know, what Jonathan

said is, is brilliant.

It's, you can get to that

aspirational message once

you've contextualized

it, but start from that,

that specific point.

And they do a great job.

Elle: Yeah.

Yeah.

And you know what, as you were

talking, it made me realize

that it doesn't help give

context to how your product

fits in your customer's world.

So when you don't add that

context, then your customer

is left to fill it in.

And that's how you end up

with a confusion and Well,

who are you and oh, you're

this, when really you're that.

So I completely agree.

Um, I'm also on their website.

I really like how that's

unfolding and that story

as you scroll through.

I think that was a

really strategic point.

Um, so what's something

that you wish that PMM

would've considered

differently building out

some of this messaging?

Craig: Yeah, and look,

I'm always, um, I'm always

very sympathetic because.

so, you know, these guys are

kind of, you know, I wouldn't

say they're like early stage.

They're, they're series A,

but they're still building

out an understanding of their

market and they're still

AB testing and figuring out

what works and what doesn't.

So, um, I'm always hesitant

to say they should have done

this and should have done

that because actually, you

know, you'll see lots of

advice that says all in one

lead positioning never works.

I recently worked with a

medical, uh, a med tech

platform, and actually

that was exactly the

positioning that we needed.

And I, again, a whole separate

conversation to justify that.

So I never, I never like

to kind of just say,

here's a universal rule.

That being said,

I think one thing.

They could do in the above

the fold is specifically

call out security teams.

You sort of have to scroll

down a bit before you

re you realize that's

a target audience.

It's a really tiny thing,

but just dial up that

empathy like straight away.

Just provide that clarity as

early as you possibly can.

and then I would also say

there the opportunity to

learn even more through that

research of customers and,

and prospects and buyers.

Is there an emotion, for

example, that you could

identify around, you

know, some of the concerns

that they're addressing?

So for example, you know,

they say accelerate AI

adoption, and I imagine that

that is a really key use case

for their target customer.

They're like, look, we're

growing really fast.

We're implementing all of

these AI tools and like we

just lose control of data.

So something like

this really helps.

But I would love to know

some of the emotions

behind those pains.

Like is there stuff

that is keeping you

up at night with the

acceleration of AI adoption?

If that's the

case, what is it?

What is it?

And so, you know, one thing

which I always do when

I look through messaging

it, and one of my favorite

words is the word without,

because it immediately tells.

G you can achieve this thing

without the downsides of

the, the alternative that

you are probably using

Elle: Right.

The alternatives.

Craig: The alternative.

And so I want to know, like

right now, what is it that

is keeping them up at night?

Yeah, they want to accelerate

a AI adoption, but there is

some real worries behind that.

And I think it could just

slightly edge up, if you

like the, the, the concern

and the anxiety that their

target buyer is experiencing

that they can solve.

Elle: Yeah, I was gonna

say the same thing.

I, as I was scrolling through

and I'm finding there all

of the benefits and the cool

stuff that their platform

can do, I am left thinking,

um, it's not, I mean, I'm

not the target audience, so

let's be clear about that.

But I'm not seeing a way

for me to empathize with

the target audience though,

because I don't see any

use of Yeah, to your point.

There's, there's no

emotion, or I'm, at least

I'm not picking up on it.

I don't know.

Jonathan, what are you seeing?

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, same,

it, it, it feels like it's

saying the right message,

but I think one honing on

the emotion, like what are,

what, what happens if you

don't have this solution?

Right.

I think to Craig's point

without, I think that's

where you, you kind of

really drive the point home.

Um, one other thing

I noticed was that.

I think the, the CTA on the

homepage like takes you to

a demo request, which I was

kind of surprised by that

because I, I think visitors

wouldn't necessarily, like

website visitors wouldn't

necessarily expect that.

Um, and it seems like a

very, like, Hey, you just

learned about our website

or, or about our product.

Like, go get on a

demo immediately.

I wonder if this is

an opportunity to kind

of have a softer CTA,

like, um, a product tour

would be really nice.

Or a video case study,

like something like that.

Elle: Such a great call out.

Yeah.

If there's something that

I know my buyers hate, it's

like forcing me to get on

the call with a salesperson

just to see the product.

It's so frustrating.

Jonathan: It really is.

I mean, even,

Craig: just learned like how

this product works, right?

Demo, I, I'm, you

know, I'm not.

I'm kind of not quite

ready, or actually I

still don't feel like

I've got the full context.

So, um, yeah, I totally agree

that there's also a point

around like what does that

journey natural journey feel

like for your target audience?

And actually this is where

it, there is a little bit of

nuance with sub sub verticals.

If you are, if you are working

with security tech, uh, or

legal tech, your audience.

If they work in those

fields, probably want a

little bit more information.

There might be an extra

level of risk aversion.

So there's an extra layer

of education that is

required in that journey.

Um, you know, again, that's

a huge generalization, but

it's just, you know, something

to consider when you go.

Right.

What is the CTA?

We want to get them on

a call straight away.

Well, actually they might

go to that demo page

and go, oh no, I'm okay.

Thanks.

Elle: Yeah.

Okay.

Jonathan: At the end of

the day, it's a trust

building exercise.

That's what it is.

Elle: Yeah.

Right.

So taking some of that,

that, that great commentary.

Um, what would you guys do?

What, what are some tips and

advice, um, how can these

pmms take it to the next level

Craig: One thing, which

I think is, I mean, it's

something that we've,

we've spoken about, um,

but it's this idea of

you are the new way.

What, what is, what

is the old way?

And I think really

stepping into that mindset.

Is also something they could

bring to their homepage as

well, is not just talking

about what makes you great,

but, but what is it that, you

are solving in the day to day

for your target buyer that

is really difficult for them.

and so it is.

Spotting those emotional

dynamics, the social dynamics

as well, and then bringing

that out in the messaging.

So they're probably doing

a great job of that.

I'm there, there's just an

opportunity, I think to to

really dial up the urgency,

uh, in, in the message.

And I think that would be a

really great route to that.

Elle: I love it, Jonathan.

Jonathan: I mean, agreed.

I think, um.

Along with kind of the CTAs,

along with kind of the,

the things we've already

talked about, just really

differentiating from the

alternative, I think is kind

of a different way to state

what, what Craig mentioned,

is, would just make it easier

because I think it's almost

like, um, and, and again,

security teams by definition

should understand what the

ramifications are, what the

problems are with adopting ai.

But if it ever comes

to a point where it's a

different persona going

to the page, it's not

necessarily super clear.

Like you don't, you're

not a security expert.

You're like, oh, well

what is the problem?

Why can't we just

roll out chat GBT or

insert AI tool here?

Elle: Yeah.

Jonathan: That a little

clearer, uh, would,

would help for sure.

Elle: Yep.

Yep.

Totally agree.

Uh, alright, Metomic, we

like what we see, but you've

got some really good tips

here, so we'd love to see

some of that implemented so

that you can take that, that

messaging to the next level.

alright, so Jonathan Craig,

there's one thing that I'd

like to make room for on

this podcast and that is

having a moment of gratitude.

Um, because as product

marketers, none of

us get here alone.

We're always.

Building on each other and

being mentored by each other.

So thank you both so much

for your willingness to

come on and share your

playbook and your expertise

and all the time that you

spent prepping for this.

Um, I really appreciate

it and I know it benefits

the PMM community.

So thank you.

Um, and then, yeah, and I

wanna turn it over to you.

let's give some shout outs

to some of the pmms who have

brought you to your point in

your careers and how you've

been mentored along the way.

Jonathan: Yeah, for sure.

Um, so I've got two

that come to mind.

So, one, I know this is

cliche, but Craig, uh, you're

easily number one on the list.

Uh, you know, when you

start a collaboration with

another pm m like, you don't

know how it's gonna go.

And I think, with Craig,

I like, I've gained a true

product marketing partner.

It's not just like,

oh yeah, sure, I'll

bounce ideas off of you.

But someone that's like.

Actively pushing my

business forward.

I think he's also kind of

given me the strength, like

the, the courage to like,

just do whatever the damn

thing is, like, and just

be unapologetically me.

and like the other part

is like, I've been doing

product marketing for

well over a decade, like.

I know product marketing

like the back of my hand,

but every time I work with

Craig, I learn a new way

of doing things and that's

something I really enjoy.

So definitely

appreciate you bud.

the other person I'll

shout out is Kevin Chan.

I think he is absolutely

an incredible PMM

top 1% of all product

marketers in the world.

Um.

He's, uh, on top of being

just an excellent PMM.

He's like an adored product.

Uh, uh, people leader, I

should say, like his team

absolutely loves him,

run through a wall for

him, so on and so forth.

And he's just a visionary.

he's the one who actually

started my mentorship journey

on a DP list, so I joined

a DP list because of him.

he's given me tremendous

business advice and he

inspired the idea of a

company that I'm actually

hoping to launch next year.

And then even beyond that,

he's referred product

marketing candidates to me for

my product marketing agency.

And just like generally

always been super supportive.

Uh, and just the nicest

guy, like you cannot say a

mean thing about the guy.

Like just such a kind guy.

So, uh, big fan of both so,

Elle: oh, so great.

Craig, your turn.

Let's hear it.

Craig: Well, I'm

gonna throw it back to

Jonathan, um, and, uh.

I, I had to, I had to

pay Jonathan a lot of

money for that one.

Um, but, uh, yeah, that

was the most expensive

inducement so far.

Um, but, uh, but no,

seriously, I think, um,

the first thing I'm, I'm

gonna say about Jonathan is

that, he's really great at

clear direct feedback and.

it has made me a better

product marketer and it's

something that I actually

really miss from my

days working internally

for B2B SaaS companies.

Like it was such a, it was

such a point of the beamery

culture, which is like.

Look, as long as we're

respectful, we're not hurting

anyone's feelings here.

Just like, let, if you

don't think it's a good

idea, like let's just, let's

just talk about why and

let's find a better idea.

And I, I really love that

dynamic with, with Jonathan.

we always get to a better

solution, uh, you know, with

what Jonathan said about

me, like I've also learned,

uh, different approaches

also working, um, with him.

I think I also feel a lot of

trust with Jonathan as well.

And like that is something

that has really like,

uh, been part of the

strength of our, our

relationship that has grown.

and I just want to do

like work Al always

with, with Jonathan.

Like I always want

to be partnering with

him on every project.

Like, it's just, it's always

such a, it is such a joy and I

think, you know, we've, being

a founding product marketer

can be a really vulnerable

thing within a startup.

So I just wanted like,

shout out to like any.

Founding solo

product marketer.

Like I, I get you.

I see you.

It's, it's tough.

Like you are doing freaking

awesome work and it's just

nice to like have someone

that's been through that I

can really like, appreciate

a lot of the challenges and

like, you know, the amount of

work we've had to do to get

to a point that we actually

feel confident enough to

like talk about this stuff.

Right.

So, um, Jonathan's just.

Fricking awesome.

Um, I'm gonna very quickly

shout out a few other people.

So, um, one other person,

Sophie Coleman, who is, um, a

product marketer I worked with

at Beamery that Beamery was my

first product marketing gig.

Um, Sophie came in as a

more senior product marketer

and it was really the

first time I saw what I

considered to be very kind

of elevated, what elevated

product marketing looks like.

Um, you know, pmms

going beyond just being

a content creator.

And that was a moment

where I thought.

That's really cool.

I like that.

also, um, Christelle deport

and, uh, Chloe Nichols

because they were the two

product marketers that I

formed the meetup group with,

in London, all those years

ago when there were only

350 of us in the country.

Um, you both rock and,

and you are awesome.

And, um, you know, we were

all, again, solo founding

product marketers and it

was just nice to have such a

really cool support network.

So yeah.

That

Elle: I love it.

You guys are gonna have

to make some intros to

some of these peeps 'cause

they sound amazing also.

I see, I see future

collaboration

happening for you guys.

I'm sure more is coming.

Okay, I promise this is

my last question for you.

Is it just best for

our listeners to find

you guys on LinkedIn?

How can we access your

expertise a little more?

I.

Jonathan: LinkedIn is great.

Craig: Yeah, we, we, we chat

a lot on LinkedIn, so, um,

I love meeting new people.

Um, I think

Jonathan's the same.

Um, so just drop

me a connection.

Request.

Drop me a message.

Let's hang out.

Elle: Sounds good.

You have it.

We'll put it in the show notes

for everybody to find you.

Um, so with that, like,

we're gonna conclude

that, uh, today's episode.

Thank you again,

Craig and Jonathan.

This was lovely and so

appreciative of your time.

And thank you PMM listeners

for coming along on

today's journey with us.

I hope this episode leaves

you with inspiration to

take on the next step

of your own journey.