Product Marketing Adventures | Transcript: Create a New Market Category Like a Splunk PMM

Create a New Market Category Like a Splunk PMM

August 5, 2025 / 54:43/E12

Elle: In product marketing, we

talk a lot about positioning,

messaging, and knowing your

customer, but what happens

when the market itself shifts

or when your product evolves

so much that the story you've

been telling no longer fits.

Today we're talking about

one of the boldest moves A

PMM can make shaping or even

creating a market category.

Whether you're redefining

a space you play in,

staking your claim in

an emerging category or

building one from scratch,

this is where strategy,

narrative, and business.

Collide and we are here to

break it down with a PMM who's

had a few at bats at helping

companies find and even

own their market position.

I am so thrilled to welcome

Michael Olson to the show.

You guys, let me tell you

why you're going to love

this case study from Michael.

He's currently the senior

Director of Product

Marketing at Splunk.

He is a trusted mentor,

recognized as a top 100

PMM on Share Bird, and

the founder of the Product

Marketer blog, where he shares

insights from the field.

And what really sets

Michael apart is the

way that he shows up as

product marketing leader.

If you've ever gotten to

work with Michael before,

you'll probably, or you've

probably heard someone say.

We should run this by Michael

because he's the person who

asks the tough questions,

advocates for the customer,

and brings thoughtful strategy

to every conversation.

Michael, I'm so

glad you're here.

Welcome to the show.

Michael: Hey, what's up Al?

Thanks for having me on.

love what you're doing with

this podcast, by the way.

I think the world needs

better product marketing

and you know, there's really

no manual for what we do.

So a lot of respect

for, uh, what you're

doing here on this pod.

Elle: Thank you so much

Alright, let's dive right in.

Okay, so category creation

is one of the most ambitious

things a PMM can take on.

Not everybody gets to do it,

but I would argue that almost

all pmms get to influence

their position in the market.

So.

So before we tackle this head

on and before we jump into

the case study, help give

us some definition around

what does it mean to have

a market category Exactly.

Michael: Yeah, I think

simply put a, a market

category is the position

in your customer's mind,

where your product plays.

And I think as like

humans, we naturally wanna

categorize things as a

way of helping us make

sense of our world, right?

And we do this stuff,

we do this kind of

stuff all the time.

Like if I asked you what

Haagen Dos is, you would

probably say it's, you know,

super premium ice cream.

Or if I asked you what you

know, a BMW three series

is, you would probably say

it's a luxury compact sedan.

And obviously those are both

B2C examples, but I think,

you know, the exact same

truth holds in the B2B world.

And I personally think

category creation is one of

the most important things

that you can do to set your

company up for, you know,

long-term durable growth.

Like we're all familiar

with the old field of

dreams adage that if you

build it, they will come.

You know, based on the

idea that if you launch

an amazing product, it's

just gonna sell itself.

And sometimes that works,

but I think a lot of

the time it doesn't.

Right.

And it's because

it's not good enough.

Just to create a great

product, you also need to

frame the category and create

the market in which you play.

Elle: Yeah, as you

were talking, I was

thinking all the way

back to my college days.

I, majored in psychology

in undergrad and I remember

learning about heuristics

and exactly as you were

referring, creating labels

and categories just helps

our brains and Marvins work

faster and more efficiently.

Um, so our jobs as product

marketers are to help

our customers make those

connections for them.

so.

Let's now dig a little bit

into the case study itself.

I know you have a few

different examples of

this from your career.

So let's start with you

walking us through a time

when you helped create or

shape a market category.

Michael: Sure.

So we'll do a.

little bit of a

throwback here.

Uh, I started my career

outta school as employee

number eight at a pre-series,

a pre-revenue startup.

Uh, called Jan Rain, and

I spent, uh, six years

there as we scaled up

to about 200 employees,

15 million in recurring

annual revenue.

And when I first joined,

we had just built and

launched our flagship

product, which was this

thing called social login.

Like, have you ever visited a

website, you know, where you

can use your existing Google

or Facebook identity to like

create an account

on that site?

yeah.

Yeah.

So it's a nice time

saver right over like

needing to fill out

a registration form

from scratch and

remember yet another

Elle: Another password.

Oh God.

There's nothing worse.

Michael: Totally.

And this was a long time ago,

so this is like when we were

still writing down our login

details on Post-It notes

instead of, you know, using

something like One Password.

So anyway, this company

I worked at, we basically

invented that technology

and pretty early on after

launching this social login

product, we realized that

the market problem wasn't big

enough for this product alone.

In order to build like a big

company around it there, you

know, simply put like there

wasn't gonna be enough money

in that banana stand for us

to reach a state velocity.

Uh, and we needed

to think bigger.

So we got to work basically

building out a broader

product portfolio, including

like a website registration

as a service product, and a

customer profile database to

enable digital marketers to

be able to store demographic

and psychographic data for

people who created an account.

On their website, and this was

actually all kind of new to

the world technology at the

time, you know, for companies

to be able to buy something

like that as a service instead

of building it from scratch.

And we really only had one

competitor, a company outta

the Bay Area called Gigia

that was like doing anything

close to what we were doing.

And initially we tried

positioning this, you

know, new portfolio as a

user management platform

for the social web.

But it was kind of a mouthful.

It like totally wasn't

barbecue speak or

customer language.

it really didn't

connote any value, so

it just didn't stick.

And so we got to work, in

like 20 13, 20 14, basically

defining and building

a category as the space

where our products played.

And eventually we coined

and led the creation of

the customer identity and

access management category.

And that's a market that

our competitors later

standardized on analyst firms

who covered digital marketing

technology have since

Elle: Yeah.

It's like a crazy,

huge market now.

Michael: Yeah.

And it's, and it's a term

that's still used today

to refer to products for

public companies like

Okta and Microsoft and

Elle: Even Cisco.

Yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

totally.

So, I ended up, uh, moving

on, you know, to a new gig

at a company called Puppet

after about six years.

But our, our little

startup got acquired by

Akamai, which is a $3

billion public company.

And, um, you know,

essentially became Akamai's

flagship customer identity

and access management,

uh, product offering.

Elle: Awesome.

Okay.

Wow, what an incredible story.

So I would love to take this

case study and now let's

create some practical steps

that A PMM would take to

shape the market category

for their own product.

So, um.

Guess in your mind, what's

the first decision that a

PMM m would need to make?

Is it really about creating

something that's brand new?

Is it redefining an

existing shape a space?

Is it, attaching your

product to, you know, a

category that already exists?

Like, I guess like, help

us understand what the

PMM needs to do first.

Michael: Yeah.

I think you kind of nailed

the decision tree basically.

I think the first question

you need to ask yourself

as a pm m is, you know, one

is my company introducing

a new to the world thing

where we're creating a brand

new market category where

none previously existed.

Two, are we solving

an existing problem in

a new way in order to

differentiate from incumbents?

And actually what we're

doing is redefining an

existing category that

we already play in.

Or third, are we expanding

into an adjacent market?

That already exists and

basically trying to reposition

our company to play in this

category either through, you

know, new Product development.

or through acquisition.

So, you know, I, I think

you, you have to kind of

start thinking long term and

asking questions like, Hey,

in three to five years, what

do we want to be known for?

You know, as a company,

uh, buyer buyers.

Elle: Yeah.

And just the way that you were

describing the decision tree,

it sounds like it, anchors on

what the customer's problem

is and is it a problem that

has not been solved, thus,

a net new market, a problem

that is currently being

solved, but your company's

currently not solving for it

or is, is new to solving it.

So that would be kind of

shifting the market or, know,

something around, around

that nature is, is what it

really feels like and that

would require some, deep

understanding on what your

customer's pains are and

really knowing the problem,

um, that your company is

solving for or will solve for.

as the company evolves.

So I guess once you've made

that call and you realize

that you need to go forth and

maybe create a new category,

we'll say, just for the sake

of creating this, you know,

kind of, practical steps,

what would step two be after

you kind of work your way

through the decision tree?

Michael: Yeah.

I think you know, from

there everything starts with

positioning and getting your

category narrative actually

written down on paper.

And so, you know, first

I, I guess like if you're

wondering why this is

even a PMM thing in the

first place and why we're

talking about it on this.

Podcast.

I would argue it's because

category creation at its

core is a positioning

exercise, and I think every

product marketer needs to

make it their business to

be experts at positioning.

And to do so really requires

like a mastery of, you know,

your market, your buyers and

their needs, and understanding

of what makes you different.

And then also the ability

to actually craft a

strong point of view.

That can influence

others on your thinking.

And you know, in terms of kind

of the framework that we use,

like, uh, you and I talked

about this actually earlier.

Like I'm a big fan of Andy

Raskin's thinking on narrative

design.

like go look him up

on LinkedIn if you

haven't heard of him.

He is, he, he writes

a lot of great thought

leadership around how to

craft sales messaging and.

B2B messaging that resonates.

But we basically used a

lot of his thinking to

structure our category

narrative at Jan Rain.

And I've, you know, kind

of run the same playbook

at Puppet and New Relic and

my current role at Splunk.

And I'll sort of stub

out like the five main

sections of that narrative.

And then maybe we can kind

of, you know, I can dig back

into my, uh, in the history

book and we can talk about how

we did it at Jan Rain, but.

the first step is

really to name a big

change in the world.

And this is basically the

market context in which

your customers live.

And, you know, as a PMM,

like you wanna establish

credibility and empathy

by showing that you

understand your customer's

world and the changes that

they're experiencing and

how those might impact

them in the future.

And then next, you wanna

identify the problem that

that change creates and its

impact and the consequence

of not solving it.

And I, I think this is

probably the most important

step in building a category

because from my experience,

the companies that frame the

problem the most persuasively,

those are the ones that.

actually like define

categories and win.

And they're the ones who get

customers to like buy into

their vision for solving it.

You know?

Elle: Yeah.

Michael: so, and then I think

the third step is really about

depositioning the status quo.

And this is super important

because it's what really

reinforces the need to

explore new ways of thinking

while sort of poking holes

in the old way, uh, and the

incumbents you displace.

And this is kind of the part

of your narrative that gets

people out of do nothing mode.

or like, why can't I just,

you know, continue operating

the way I always have?

And then next kind of

four step, step of the

narrative is really about

describing the Promised Land.

This is, again, an

Andy Raskin concept.

You can think of it as

like the overarching need

or the ideal state that

you want your customers

to be able to get to.

And it's not a laundry

list of features.

I don't even think you

should be like talking

about yourself here or your

company or your products.

This is all about.

Getting your customers to

buy into the importance

of solving the problem

and to paint a vision for

what great looks like.

and then last, uh, kind of

step or you know, section

of the narrative is really

about framing your category

then as the thing that's

needed to help your customers

get to the promised land.

And this is where.

I think you actually can

start pivoting to talking

about yourself a little bit

and it, and where it becomes

really important to sort of

state like the requirements

or the capabilities that

are needed to get there.

And so that's really a

golden opportunity for you

to kind of like inception

your differentiators in the

minds of, of a customer.

Elle: Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Thank you so much for

walking us through that.

you reminded me why I love

the Andy Roskin framework

for narrative design.

So much.

It's so others oriented.

It's very customer focused,

as you pointed out,

majority of the framework.

Is entirely about the customer

and the market and the

problems that they're facing.

They don't even introduce

you or your product

until the very end.

and I, the other thing

that you mentioned, that's

part of the framework

that I just wanted to call

out what I have in, in

my personal positioning

framework is that the.

Ineffective

alternatives, right?

Like making sure you

understand like the

status quo and like

why that doesn't work.

Like the old way of doing

things, why that doesn't work.

Um, and putting that,

wrapping that up, the

perspective of the customer.

So I'm really eager to hear

an example of the walkthrough.

Are you able to walk

us through an example

from the identity access

management product

category, I guess, that you

Michael: I'll, I'll, do my

best with, uh, the caveat

that this is like, you

know, dating back into

2014, mindset, but I, Yeah.

I think you nailed it by

the way, on your point.

Like, you know, when

you think about sort of

structuring sales messaging

as like kind of, you

know, why change, why now?

Why us?

A lot of times the why

us isn't necessarily

us versus a competitor.

It's like us versus status

quo and doing nothing.

And you know, B2B vendors

lose a lot of deals to

basically do nothing.

Like the customer

made no decision.

And so I think that's

where it's, it's really

important to kind of

frame that promise land.

Um, and to de position

the status quo is sort

of like light of fire in

prospects to wanna change.

Elle: I completely agree.

Michael: Yeah, So.

anyway, when, when we did

this at Jan Rain and kind

of pioneered the customer

identity and access management

space, um, we, we basically

applied this like, you know,

this, this kind of category,

narrative structure, uh, to

building out our own narrative

and then using it to activate

it and, and get the market to

kind of standardize on it and.

As I remember at least like

the, the change that we kind

of articulated was like,

Hey, if you're a digital

marketer in 2014, your

customers are now interacting

with your brand across an

ever exploding number of

devices and touchpoint.

This touchpoint, this was

like early in the days

of everybody having a

smartphone and starting to

like transact online via

mobile devices in addition

to like websites on their

computer and the old way of.

Being able to like, kind

of get a, a view of your

customer and their behavior.

And their activity was

basically by like cookies

that were attached

to a web browser.

And so when you think about,

you know, consumer switching

devices, the old way of

tracking consumer behavior

through cookies like no longer

works because if I go to your

website on my personal laptop,

but then I go to your website

a day later on my smartphone.

You would have No

way of knowing.

if that was the same me, you

know, in, in both instances.

So, we basically position

that as like the change in

the world and then frame

the customer problem as

essentially like you have

this fragmented view of

your customer's identity and

it's really hard to be able

to, you know, see who your

customers are, understand

what makes them tick, and

understand behaviors that

they're taking, you know,

interacting with your brand

to help you better serve

them and better engage them.

and we really kind of

framed like the, you

know, tracking cookies

that were device specific

as like the villain, to

be able to deposition the

status quo, if you will.

And so we framed up, you

know, we framed up like the

promised Land as essentially.

Being able to have like a

unified identity for your

customers and being able

to under understand their

demographic data, their

psychographic data behaviors

they were taking as they

were interacting with your

brand in a unified view.

that the solution was

really, you people to

identity on your website.

Um, and then having

the ability to like.

Understand, you know,

psychographic data around

their interests that, you

know, you would get from like

their Facebook profile if

they logged into your site

using their Facebook identity.

then to be able to also

start to correlate behavioral

data that, you know, that

people were taking as they

were interacting with your

brand with that demographic

and psychographic data.

So that was kind of

the promise land that

we framed and then.

You know, we sort of

described, the category,

uh, that's needed was really

around customer identity and

access management, being able

to like, unify the identities

for your customers, but Then

also control access, um,

you know, in a way that was

secure around like, how they

could interact with your,

with your website and, uh,

with your brand and transact

and, and that kind of stuff.

And, and then actually.

framed up our differentiators

as like the requirements

or the key capabilities

that you needed in order to

get to that promised land.

Elle: Yes.

Okay.

So in your example, so much of

the narrative was about what's

happening in your customer's

world and how their behaviors

are changing customer's.

Customers is what

I meant.

and then it evolved to what?

That translates to for.

Your ideal customers, right?

Like, how they can either

seize this change as an

opportunity or how they

would be kind of left behind

as the world is shifting.

So, um, example of

using the framework.

Thank you so much for

walking us through that.

Okay, so now I wanna

jump back to then.

The steps that, right.

That A PMM would,

would need to take.

So we talked about the

decision tree, then we said,

just, just hypothetically

say we're going forth

with creating a, a brand

new market category.

And, um, you said the first

thing that A PMO would

need to do then is to.

Do some positioning, write

up a narrative, ideally with

the framework that you just

kind of walked us through.

So I guess like what

happens after that?

Like once you have this

beautiful narrative,

what do you do with it?

What stakeholders do

you need to run it by?

Who do you need for buy-in?

a little bit about that.

Michael: Yeah.

I, I mean, you

kind of nailed it.

Like at this point I think

you basically need to become

an internal salesperson,

and when we did a similar

exercise at another job

when I worked at Puppet,

which was more like kind

of redefining the existing

category in which we played.

Uh, we literally set up

internal roadshows with groups

of five employees at a time

for like live reads of the

narrative to get feedback

to improve it, but then

also to like secure buy-in

and basically get the whole

company mobilized on the

story and on the narrative.

And you know, my take is like

if you're in a startup or

a mid stage growth company,

that probably means like

going all the way up to the

CEO for feedback and buying,

especially if you're working

in a founder led company.

but if you're in a large

established company Like

the one that you know,

you and I work for,

Cisco.

that probably means stair

stepping the narrative, you

know, up your leadership

chain, maybe to like the

CMO, the chief Product

Officer and the chief

revenue officer would be

like my realistic take.

And, you know, I'm a big

fan by the way of starting

with the sales team.

And getting their input and

buy-in first, because it

really goes a long way as

you're internally selling,

uh, toward making your

narrative more credible.

Um, if you can point to

like 5, 10, 20 folks on your

sales team who are bought in

and believe that that's the

right story to be telling

with customers and the right

category to be playing in.

Elle: Yeah.

I wanna double down on

something you said to bring

the sales team along with

you and getting that buy-in.

I made the mistake earlier on

in my career where I knew to

work with the product team,

but then we're like, all

right, the messaging's done.

Like, let's roll out to sales.

And they're like.

Wait a minute, like, you

know, they had a lot of really

great feedback, but it caused

some, adjusting timeline and

schedule and iteration on my

end, but very early lesson in

my career to bring the sales

team along with you as you're

crafting the narrative and the

Michael: Oh, for sure.

I have like totally crashed

and burned so many times in

my career where I've like

built messaging in a vacuum

and then like presented

it in a TDA moment to the

sales team and nobody on the

sales team has seen it or

reviewed it and it just like.

Didn't land well at all.

And so like the, I think, I

think you're totally spot on.

like the biggest thing

you can do outside of what

we're talking about today,

just like anytime you're

crafting new messaging as

a pm m, is make sure that.

by the time you're doing

like an enablement session

to get it in front of your

field, you can point to like

five people in the room and

say like, raise your hand.

If you helped contribute

to the development of this

narrative, if like your

voice kind of came through

in this, I think it, it

really lends a lot of

credibility to make sure that

it's been pressure tested

with

Elle: Yeah, and I will even

say most leaders that I

have presented messaging and

positioning to, they will

ask, has sales seen this?

Has what?

What does sales think?

Or even in, as I've

been presenting to.

Pretty senior folks at Cisco

will have, you know, maybe the

GM of the business asking, you

know, turn over to his, his

or her counterpart in sales

and say, have you seen this?

What do you think?

And it goes a long way

when they have seen it.

So,

so many proof points there.

Okay, so now you've

got everyone rowing

in the same direction.

Everybody's on board

internally, um, after

however many, you know,

iterations you have to take.

So what happens after that?

How do you actually get

that market category

to stick in the market?

Michael: Yeah.

I think once you've got

like the internal buy-in

on the positioning and

the story, then you need

to actually activate that

narrative externally and, um.

I'll share kind of a couple

examples, like when, when

we did this at Jan Rain and

at my next company, again,

the the mid stage growth

company puppet that was trying

to redefine the existing

category in which we played,

we basically started with

like a full court press with

the analyst community that

wrote research for our buyers.

And you know, we

did it through like

strategic advisories.

Briefings to share our

positioning and customer

stories and new innovations

and routine inquiries to

get feedback on it all

throughout the process.

And our goal was really to

persuade the analysts that

this was a big enough problem

and a big enough market

to actually categorize it.

And then to steer their view

of the market requirements

or to, you know, to use like

a Gartner term, like the

critical capabilities, to

align to what differentiated

us in, in kind of the goal of

giving us an unfair advantage.

And, you know, the, the Jan

Rain example I shared earlier

at the beginning of my career.

One of the main MarTech,

analyst firms called Coppinger

Cole, they eventually created

a customer identity and

access management vendor

comparison report, and named

Jan Randy, overall leader.

And when I was at Puppet

and we were redefining

our existing category.

We were able to influence

Forrester to create a wave

report for the categories.

We saw it called

infrastructure automation.

And we were also named

the overall leader.

And so, outside of ar I

think That's like the first

place that I would sort of

double down on activation,

um, is to get the kind

of external independent

neutral validation that Yes.

this is the category.

analyst firms play a big

role in influencing buyers

and end users, right?

but outside of that lining up

category, thought leadership

and awareness campaigns also

plays, I think a big role in

getting the category to stick.

And some of the

things that I've.

You know, seeing work

well are state of reports.

I'm a huge fan of those.

know, we do at Splunk today,

we do an annual state of

observability report every

year, and it is the biggest

body of research on the planet

for For what it means

to do observability.

Well, observability is the

category in which we play.

And you know, to give you

an example, like last year

we surveyed more than 1700

people to inform the report.

Uh, and when I was at Puppet,

I, I didn't have anything to

do with this, but I worked

with an amazing PMM named

Alana Brown, who spearheaded

an annual state of DevOps

report, which was also the

largest research of its kind.

And we got a ton of mileage.

This report every

year because it was an

opportunity to reinforce the

importance of our category

infrastructure automation

as like a key requirement

for doing DevOps well, and.

I think some other ideas like

for playbooks that work well

for activating your category,

like more down funnel.

Um, I've also found it works

well to create things like

buyer's guides for your

category where it comes

off as more like vendor

neutral, but again, you

sort of position the.

Requirements or core

capabilities in a way that

maps to your differentiators.

And then also golden.

RFP templates are

great, know, to kind of,

again, help steer buyer

requirements in your favor.

And then last thing

I'll say, and I'd love

your take on this, is

if you're a B2B vendor.

Don't sleep on peer review

sites like Gartner Peer

Insights Trust Radius

G two, like these are a

great opportunity to hard

code your ta your like

category into the taxonomy

that these

sites use to label

your company and.

It since it's 2025 and

we can't do a podcast

without mentioning ai.

I do think peer review sites

are more important than ever.

Like when you think about

chat GPT or Gemini kind of

becoming like the primary

interface that your prospects

are using to research products

rather than like visiting your

corporate website directly.

Elle: Totally.

Absolutely.

Yes.

I think you're spot on.

And, I would also recommend

digging into popular forums

for your, where your ICP

hangs out, even like Reddit.

read, um, an article

somewhere, I can't

remember where it was now.

I'll have to try to find it.

But it was an article that

talked about where various,

Generative AI tools get a lot

like source a lot of their

information across the web.

And for example, it,

it lists a number of

different sources, right?

But like, Reddit was one

that came up for chat,

GTP, just as an example.

It's not, of course, not

the only place, but one

of the sources where it

gets its information.

So, um, I think that's such a

great idea, uh, source that.

You gave us so many tips and

playbooks and ideas here.

I wanna circle back

to, some feedback you

gave around getting the

analysts buy-in early, uh,

particularly for, you know,

B2B uh, SaaS companies.

I think that's so

important as someone who.

Um, has had to put

together multiple, forms

for the Gartner mq or

submissions and the critical

capabilities and forester

waves and all the things.

I And there are so many

opinions about this.

I've heard a lot of ver

pretty senior leaders.

Both at small companies and

large companies who are of

the opinion that like, oh,

everything is pay to play.

Like, oh, you only get into

the leadership quadrant or

the the leader category if

you know you've paid some

ridiculous amount of money.

I disagree with that

actually, as someone who's

been on the Gartner side.

And have, I've worked hand

in hand with analysts.

I disagree with that.

I personally believe that

you should, pmms should look

at analysts as a partner

or a sounding board in how

they're developing messaging,

but I don't, I don't have

too much experience on

this for category creation.

So curious from

your perspective.

when you start engaging with

an analyst on something like

this, how do you go about it?

Do you try to get their

feedback first and let

them kind of like think

it was their idea?

Or do you say, Hey,

here's what we think.

What do you think?

Is this what

you're seeing too?

Do you use them as validation?

I guess, like talk a

little bit about what that

engagement looks like.

Michael: Yeah, I,

first off, I Totally.

agree with you by the way.

Like I don't think of

analyst relationships

as pay to play at all.

I have literally worked

in companies where there's

been like a magic quadrant

for our category where, um.

Vendors have been named

a leader that weren't

even Gartner clients.

So, uh, I think

you're spot on.

Like, you know, the, the

analysts like you, you

should think of them as

trusted advisors and neutral

experts on your market.

And a sounding board

for feedback on product

strategy, on positioning

strategy, including like

a lot of the stuff that

we're talking about today.

and by the way, yes, they can

become an influence, you know.

Opportunity for you, because

at least in the case of like

a Gartner or a Forester,

you know, they're actually

advising end user clients

that you're also trying

to sell to if you're a B2B

company.

Right.

so it's, it's both for sure.

But I would say like my

experience with, uh, with

category creation is, um,

analyst feedback early

on, to help sort of.

Kind of essentially be

like market requirements

to help shape the

direction of your category.

Narrative is really essential.

And then once you've got that

category narrative and that

positioning like nailed down

on paper, getting like either

through strategic advisories,

if you're working at a company

that can afford that, or

briefings where you can brief

them on the positioning and

then immediately follow that

up with an inquiry where you

just ask questions and just

listen and get their feedback.

I think that's the best

way to pressure test it.

And validate it before you,

you know, kind of roll it out

to the market more broadly.

Elle: Yeah, such a great tip.

my personal experience from

working on the vendor side

with Gartner as an example,

as we're, as we've developed

out messaging, for a net

new offering, we incorporate

some of their feedback and

even their voice, their

language into the narrative.

And then when they

hear it later.

I like to think that

it makes 'em feel good

that they see their own,

you know, contributions

to our narrative,

coming out to market.

So, very helpful.

Okay.

And so you mentioned

a couple of playbooks,

like for example, the

state of observability,

I think, um, report.

What else do you do on

the go to market side?

How do you make sure, like

sales enabled or the rest

of marketing, Is rowing

in the same direction?

Like how do you take

that beautiful narrative

that you put together and

got buy-in for and then

put it into the market?

What does kind of some

of that stuff look like?

Michael: Yeah.

Again,

you know, I, I talked about

internal roadshows with

smaller groups earlier

being the biggest thing that

I've found works, works to

get like your sales team and

your marketing team enabled

on your category narrative.

I am not.

A big fan of one way

communication channels,

like internal webinars,

you know, for rolling out.

Yeah, for rolling out.

Elle: Anyways.

Michael: Right.

And it's like, it's

not the right forum for

rolling out new messaging.

it's obviously like a bigger

time investment as a PMM

to like have to road show

and do the same thing with

a bunch of small groups.

But I think it's a better

way to most importantly,

get like feedback from

your sales and marketing

teammates to pressure test

the narrative and see if

the work that you've done

actually resonates or help

have them help make it better.

But then secondly, to

actually secure their buy-in

so they can carry that

narrative down the field.

To customer conversations

and derivative marketing

campaigns and content.

Um, so I think that's, to me

kind of the key for getting

it to stick and getting

your sales and marketing

teams to start to, sing from

the same playbook, so to

speak, not to mix metaphors.

Elle: I love that.

Yeah.

So helpful.

And then bringing it back

to Splunk, I know you gave a

couple of examples already.

you mentioned when we were,

uh, preparing for this

conversation that, um,

rather than creating a new

category for Splunk, your

big task for Splunk was to

attach your offering to this

huge market of observability

as a market category.

So can you talk a little bit

about that, like talk about

your approach to that and

maybe what from the framework

that you outlined did you use.

for this new task of kind

of attaching Splunk to this

existing huge market category.

Michael: Yeah, for sure.

So, uh, maybe just a

quick level set like on

Splunk for if, for anybody

who hasn't heard of it.

Yeah.

so Splunk's, a cybersecurity

and observability platform.

And what that means is

we basically help it

operations, engineering,

and security teams.

Keep their software and their

digital systems, like their

websites and their mobile

apps and their supply chain

management systems that they

use to run their business.

We help keep all that stuff up

and running and performing and

protected, you know, from like

security threats, for example.

And, course, and this

is why you and I are

coworkers, like, uh, Splunk

was acquired by Cisco a

little over a year ago.

We're now operating as a

business entity of Cisco.

But, uh, if I can give a

little bit of kind of the

story as it relates to Splunk,

it was very much a case of.

The third, uh, element

I talked about in that

decision tree toward the

top of the pod, around like

attaching our brand and our

company to an existing, you

know, emerging category.

And so when I joined Splunk,

a little over three and

a half years ago, we were

the clear market share

leader in a segment called

log management, which was

being rapidly subsumed.

By a broader new observability

category that you know

today has like a $23 billion

tam, and that observability

category had emerged as

a mashup of a bunch of

once distinct software

monitoring categories and.

We had just made several

acquisitions to expand our

product portfolio for this

emerging observability

category, but we were

kind of struggling with a

perception gap where people

still first and foremost

thought of us as either a

log management company or a

security company, and we kind

of lacked the unaided recall

for observability among.

Emerging buyers, uh, you know,

for this category of tooling,

like engineering teams.

And so when I got here, like

we got to work sharpening our

positioning to ensure that our

strategic narrative sounded

different from how, you know,

observability competitors

talked, and that we were

both, you know, framing the

customer problem a little

bit differently using our

state of observability report

findings as kindling for

describing the promised land.

And then also we, we took

a lot of great care and

attention to make sure

that we were framing

our differentiators

in a compelling.

Clear way and persuasive way

as basically the requirements,

you know, to get there,

like the requirements to

achieve the promised land.

And in the last three years

we've, we've now been named

a leader in 19 of the last 20

observability related analyst

vendor comparison reports

that have been produced.

And we've seen big

improvements in Splunk's

unaided recall, you know,

among observability buyers.

So I think like, to

kind of summarize it

or put it simply like.

We are far more likely to

be immediately shortlisted

and name dropped when

observability buyers are asked

to rattle off, you know, the

names of leading vendors in

the category than we were

three or four years ago.

Elle: That's awesome.

Yeah, it's, it feels good to

see some of the hard labor,

uh, come to fruition, um, as

you start to see yourself,

or not yourself, but see

your organization, more

prominent in the market.

That's awesome.

okay, so let me just summarize

a little bit 'cause we

talked about so much here.

first up is A PMM would have

to walk through that decision

tree of, am I creating a

new market category or you

know, is it something else?

And then it's crafting

the positioning, which

leads to the narrative.

Ideally leveraging the

framework you provided and

then, internal buy-in, being

that internal salesperson

for your messaging and

your narrative, and

then activating on that.

And that's with some, you

gave a ton of great ideas for

top of funnel type of assets.

Um.

That you can do every

year, which is great.

and then getting analysts

buy-in to help affirm

this new category.

and then to all the

way to enabling sales.

So my last question for you

on this topic is, what advice

do you have for a product

marketer who is trying to

either pivot market categories

or reshape theirs or,

create an entirely new one?

Michael: Yeah, I I would

say it's extremely hard

to get a new category

to stick, particularly

when you're like using.

made up branded terminology.

So my advice is be

pragmatic and make sure

that you're always putting

the customer first.

So, you know, don't be too

bullheaded about feeling like

you always must create a new

category versus attaching

yourself to an existing one

or redefining an existing one.

And you know, think about

like the main goal of

category creation again,

is to frame the position

in your customer's mind

where your product plays.

You know, the reality is like

if you create a category, if

you try to create one that's

too narrow or abstract, or

doesn't use customer language

or doesn't immediately create

that aha moment, you know.

when you describe it to

your ICP, you're probably

better off figuring out

how to redefine and evolve

the current category

where you play or attach

yourself to an existing one.

And then, unsolicited, but

like, you know, kind of

one other piece of advice

that's only semi-related.

I coach like my team on

a lot is like if you're a

PMM, particularly an earlier

career product marketer,

I'd say force yourself

outta your comfort zone.

And what I mean by

that is often when you

first get into product

marketing is a career path.

The initial focus is on

becoming an expert in your

own product and how it

works, and even competitor

strengths and weaknesses.

And that's all good

and it's necessary.

But I think the next step in

product marketing awesomeness.

Is to become an expert, not

just on your own products,

but on the broader market,

your buyers and the context

in which your products exist.

And a lot of the great

pmms that I've worked with,

they actually make it their

business to become experts in.

How competitors position

themselves, how they go to

market, including the ICPs

and the segments that they

target relative to us where

they have strong product

market fit versus where

they don't like how are they

balancing product led versus

sales led GTM strategies.

And I think this type of

strategic market insight only

helps you lead from the front

when it comes to things like

creating categories, but it

also can set you up as a PMM

for growth and leadership

opportunities down the road.

Elle: Yeah.

I love that tip.

I think it's so

helpful to help.

I kind of readjust

your thinking.

And you're right, it is

especially an especially

good tip for an early in

career product marketer.

If I look back to when I was

really early on, I thought

I had to be an expert in

my own product, but then

I, I felt like I wasn't,

when I was showing up to

conversations then with

customers or partners, I

realized that my knowledge

kind of stopped there.

but certainly after I went to

business school and after I,

you know, my time at Gartner,

I realized how valuable it

was to come at it as if I were

an external consultant or.

Michael: Yeah.

Elle: or an analyst, and

let me really understand

my customer's problem and

to your point, the context

that they're operating in.

And okay, well what are the,

all of the possible solutions

to this problem that I'm.

Finding and then digging

a little bit into

competitive intelligence.

I love starting with what is

the customer's problem that

they're trying to solve?

And not only how does my

problem solve it or how

does my solution help with

that problem, but also why?

And same thing with

our competitors.

Why is our competitors

solution better?

and that's where you

really start to understand

differentiators and when

those differentiators make

more sense for a customer

and can, you can write all

of this back to win-loss

data and there's so many

ways that you can kind of

connect it and drill deeper.

So I. More conversations

for another day.

Well, awesome.

Thank you so much.

And that concludes the

first segment of our show.

so now it's time for

the second segment,

which is so much fun.

It's the messaging critique.

This is where we as product

marketing experts get to

analyze real world messaging.

And the fun part is,

Michael, you as my guest,

get to, uh, pick the

company that we talk about.

so I've got three

ground rules.

For how we do the

messaging critique.

After you tell us what the

company is, uh, first you're

gonna tell me what you love

about the messaging or what

stood out about the company.

Um, then you're gonna tell

me something you wish the

PMM would've considered

differently, um, as they

were creating the messaging.

And then finally, we're gonna

do a quick fun brainstorm on.

Where the PMM can take the

messaging, to the next level.

you know, maybe it's

some fun content that

they can create or, you

know, creative campaign.

all of this is about

refining our craft.

Um, meant to be no

negativity, just thoughtful,

constructive, uh, critique.

So let's

get into it.

Big reveal.

What is the company that

you would like to critique?

Michael: Let's

talk about Walnut.

walnut.io.

Elle: Okay, so

tell us about it.

What is the product?

Who's their, ideal customer?

Michael: Yeah, I mean,

that's the thing, like I

feel like their messaging

on their website is so

clear that I feel like I can

answer that question even

though I've actually, I.

don't work there and

I've never actually

used their product.

Uh, but basically they're an

interactive demo platform,

so a tool to enable.

B2B, marketing, sales and

customer success teams to

build and run interactive

demos of their own

products for prospective

customers.

Elle: That's really cool.

Michael: yeah, I feel like

their target customer is kind

of people like you and me.

You know, like I've spent

a lot of my career as a PMM

responsible for building out

scenario based or use case

demo scripts, you know, to

teach like our sales engineers

on what to show and what

to say when they're demoing

our products to prospects

and, you I'd expect they

would target pmms who want

to embed like an interactive

click through demo of their

product on their website.

In a free trial or

a self-serve c try

buy experience.

And then, um, I also imagine

like, they target sales teams

directly, you know, that

want to be able to enable

those sales teams with like,

you know, use case oriented

demos to be able to show in

a customer buying process.

and I think there's probably

a third persona too that

I see from their website

around, uh, targeting customer

success teams directly who

want to build, like self-serve

onboarding and adoption

content for new customers, uh,

where you know, you can use

their product to actually demo

the, for specific use cases.

Elle: Yeah, and it's

so clear and direct.

Right at the top of the

page on their website,

it just reads interactive

demo platform for

marketing and sales.

That's exactly what it is.

So there's no like,

okay, what are what?

What are they doing?

I have to do some calculus

to try to make sense

of the buzzwords as.

very many.

B2B SaaS companies

do, unfortunately.

Okay, so what do

you, what else?

You said, you mentioned that

it's very clear and direct.

anything else about

the messaging that

you're really loving?

Michael: Yeah, I just think

like generally is a best

practice, especially for

B2B messaging, I think like.

Good messaging kind of

needs to do four things.

It has to be relevant,

you know, like is it

germane to your target

audience and their day job?

It's gotta be differentiated.

Like, does it sound different

from how competitors talk?

gotta create like the

immediate light bulb

moments or aha moments.

Like it's gotta create

clarity and then it's

gotta get you motivated.

It's gotta create like

interest or intent.

And I.

feel like, you know, looking

at their website, I feel

like they kind of nailed

all four of those things.

Like, I mean, on their.

I'm looking at their homepage,

they literally have a section

that says who Walnut is for

Elle: I love that.

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you,

Michael: Yeah, totally.

It's like it's got audience

specific use cases and

value props and then I feel

like it's easy to quickly

understand what they do.

Also, like, you know,

they use like very clear

conversational language to

describe what they do, but

they also kind of nailed it.

So what.

And for what it's worth,

and you talked about

this earlier, Elle, like

I'm a big fan of Simon

Sinek and start with why.

But I actually think

when it comes to like B2B

websites, you, need to

really quickly nail down what

you do in order to orient

visitors on your category.

I think Walnut.

does that really well.

Like they start by

declaring their category.

They're an interactive demo

platform, and then they

quickly pivot to the benefits

and like you can see above

the fold on their homepage.

Give your audience a

hands-on product experience,

measure deal and prospect

engagement, increase

site conversion rates.

Like if they, if they just

said those value props with

no context on what they

do or how they pay it off,

it would sort of start to

sound generic or imprecise.

But I feel like you're better

able to contextualize the

value props when you first

understand like, oh, they're

an interactive demo platform.

The other thing with Walnut,

they've done a good job of is

like they're kind of drinking

their own champagne, right?

So like, you know, you look on

the homepage, they've embedded

an interactive demo of their

product right there, like to

show how their product works,

which is like super meta.

But it's actually a great way

to like experience the product

in less than five minutes

and get a sense for what it

can do and how you'd use it.

And then I think last,

like, there's just not

a lot of fluff that I

see on their website.

Jargon, like their

messaging is simple.

It's to the point, and it's

just super easy to figure

out like what they, what

they do, and why you ought

Elle: yeah, yeah.

Like to your point, they

give you the minimum

information that you need

to keep you interested,

to get you interested, and

then just as you scroll,

it's show, don't tell.

With, with a demo, and I think

that could be really powerful.

Okay.

So what's something you

wish the PMM would've

considered differently as

they were building out this

messaging or this experience?

Michael: generally I am

not a fan of like stylistic

feedback 'cause I think

it's very subjective and

personal preference oriented.

So I'm gonna kind

of break my own

ground rules here, but, um.

But I'm, I'm trying to reach

for like, some things that

they could maybe improve just

to take it to the next level.

But for me, like, um,

personally or stylistically,

I always like seeing website

messaging that's a little

irreverent or whimsical.

Um, and I think B2B

messaging, like it can be

so dry at times, you know?

I think it really helps you

stand out and gives prospects

kind of the warm fuzzies when

they think about you if you're

a little bit more irreverent.

And Walnut does like a

little bit of this with

headlines, like why do

si, why do top sales teams

go nuts about Walnut?

But I think they could lean

in a little harder on this

vibe, especially since like

their ICP is primarily sales

and marketing teams and

growth companies, right?

Like sales and marketing

people tend to have

a lot of personality.

Um, so I think they could

embrace that a little bit

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