Product Marketing Adventures

Elle: Chris,

welcome to the show.

Chris: Elle,

thank you so much.

I'm really excited to be here

and it's always good to, good

to talk with you.

Elle: Okay, well

let's dive right in.

Uh, I think we all know what

Adobe is, so tell us more

about what's your role, what

products do you care for?

Chris: Yeah, so I

focus on enterprise,

uh, product marketing

within Frame io and so.

Quick, like one-liner

of what Frame is, it's

a cloud collaboration

platform, but it's built

specifically for creatives.

So if we think about that,

like creative teams, when

they're going to launch

anything from like, uh,

campaigns, commercials, ads,

things like that, they have

to store their assets for work

in progress projects, right?

Video, photo design,

files, docs and more.

And then control access to

like their internal team,

so their, their peers.

External agencies, their

executives, freelancers,

and so they can do all

of that within frame io.

So a really like secure place

to store and collaborate, when

these projects are, are work

in progress for the creative

teams.

Elle: Ah, that's

super helpful.

Thanks for framing that up.

our subject for today is

around this, concept of

an having an ICP strategy.

So tell us more about what was

going on with Frame IO when

you realized you needed to

rethink that ICP strategy and

reengage with the buy team.

Yeah.

Chris: Yeah, absolutely.

So one of the things,

actually, one of the first

projects I. Went down

or paths I went down.

When I started at Frame

io was just looking at our

win-loss data and kind of what

was happening in the market

with, with frame io for the

enterprise space specifically.

But one of the initiatives

that came up is our

business unit really

wanted to re-accelerate,

or like accelerate our

run rate business, right?

And so.

For anyone out there who

might not know what run rate

business is, think about it

more as the shorter sales

cycle, more transactional

sometimes looked at as logo

acquisition, but for us

it was also departmental.

So specific departments,

especially like I mentioned,

what frame is the creative

teams, they typically have a

set amount of budget that's

smaller than let's say A

CMO, for example, right?

But there are great

opportunities to

land frame in there.

a much faster pace and

eventually grow into

what we call at Adobe

transformational deals

across the, the organization.

So we really wanted to focus

on accounts where we had

limited to no frame usage or

penetration, and we wanted

to get in there, get in with

the creative teams, with

the ideal users, and then,

actually expand from there.

So that, that is kind of

like the situation that we

wanted to dive in at the

start there.

Elle: Yeah.

Yeah.

You can always expect a good

result when you find the

right user and you hit 'em

with the right information.

So, can you help us help the

audience really understand

what this could look like?

So walk us through a

hypothetical example of

what an ICP might look

like in this world.

Chris: Yeah.

so this is where I like to

spend the most of my time

because I think coming from

a sales background, I always

like to start with sales

as a channel for marketing

and, and product marketing.

And so if I think about,

like, I'll go kind of high

level and then into an

example I. the way I went

to like approach this was,

let's first look at our

internal sales data, right?

Which is basic.

Where are we winning?

what are the verticals?

Where do we see

higher win rates?

As, as much as we can

find quality data, And

that was a big piece.

And for us, like Frame started

like really within the media

and entertainment space, but

we're rapidly expanding into

like what we call at a high

level brands, which could

be like retail, financial

services, uh, healthcare,

manufacturing, et cetera.

And so, you know, we see that

the win rates are actually

like growing there and there's

a good, good opportunity.

And so it's like,

okay, that's great.

And then within that,

what are the titles or

the personas within there

where we're seeing wins?

So, you know, you

could take a look at.

All of your wind data, and

this is where I like to,

you know, focus heavily

on the wind data, where we

win and not only look at

who, what are the companies

that we're, we're winning?

What is the trend from the

previous year to this, or like

the two years ago to this year

to look at like year over year

analysis, but also the titles

and the personas, and start

grouping those into categories

of who are we talking to.

That's actually driving

these deals forward.

and so that's what

we're able to do.

And then I think one of

the most important pieces,

like while that's objective

and data driven based on

what we have in our CRM

and other systems, the

beauty with something like

Gong or the call recorders

these days is you can

listen to customer calls.

And so from there,

what you want to do is

you actually want to.

Pick some of those customers

where you have wins, and

that's what we did is,

hey, let's pick an ideal

customer as we start to

mold it based on the data.

And let's actually, instead

of just listening to calls

across a bunch of customers,

let's focus in on 1, 2,

3 customers and actually

listen to calls all the way

through the sales cycle.

And not only see when that

champion's involved, but who

else they're getting involved.

How they're navigating.

you know, those conversations

and, and frankly like where

sales reps are running into

challenges because you have

to establish a champion, then

you have to go find users who

are gonna love the product.

And then you probably have

to go up to the ultimate

budget holder and, and pitch

an ROI story, especially if

finance or procurement gets

in or, or IT, and security.

Right.

So from there you can really

get a feel for the buyer

journey and where the personas

enter in the buyer journey.

and that is like a

big unlock for us.

'cause ultimately then what

you end up doing is you

go, okay, if I can take

a step back and know that

I not only need to market

my product to a specific

company, but I actually

need to market different.

Iterations or flavors

of messaging to

different personas.

So my create my video

creative leader is gonna

wanna know one thing.

the creative director who

might be overseeing the

entire creative campaign.

they might want to hear

a little bit of different

thing it and security is

gonna wanna know that.

Our commercial is not gonna

leak before it is meant to

launch and go out there.

and then finance is gonna

want to know ROI as as well

as an executive, you know,

and A CMO is gonna wanna

know how do we differentiate

our brand and move faster.

And so we actually took

these flavors and said,

let's focus on a narrow

audience instead of go going

after our entire, countless,

let's go after accounts

that fit within this ICP.

Let's go after the different.

personas within that and let's

actually tweak our messaging

based on who we're talking to.

And that actually like really

created quality pipeline and

accelerated how fast we were

able to move those deals.

So that's what we delve into.

Now, if you were to like, take

a look at like an example,

'cause it's like, okay,

your world, what is that?

Like let's say I had

Chris Clothing Inc.

Right?

Which is a global

retail company.

And so it's like, okay.

I know retail is a good

place we want to focus on,

but within there, I wanna

dive into the personas.

So I'm gonna go find the

folks, the creatives in

charge of video there, right?

And I'm gonna understand,

like, I'm gonna look at their

website and are they putting

videos on their website,

on their social channels?

Do I see them on tv,

on commercials, those

different pieces.

'cause I know that

they're focused on really

creating quality video.

But then I also know they're

probably selling like

budget for video to their

creative director who comes

from a design background.

So I need to talk to them

about speed, quality,

differentiation, those pieces.

They're ultimately

reporting up to A CMO.

They need to know about what's

driving the brand forward.

I. and then I know I have

to put in a flavor of it

who is gonna be focused

on security and finance,

who's gonna be like, Hey,

we have to actually like

figure out budget for this.

How are you gonna justify it?

So I'm gonna take all those

different angles of Chris

Clothing Inc. And understand,

hey, you're creating a

ton of video content.

I'm seeing it go out across

commercials, across YouTube,

across these different

channels, and I can go

in with these insights

to the right personas to

really craft my messaging

and do so, add sales,

things like that.

Elle: Got it.

Okay.

So for you it was really

about identifying the

right company to target as

part of that ICP and then

building the buy team.

And trying to use some

of the insights that you

got about that company to

engage with some of those

members of the buy team.

And then, what did you

guys do after that?

Like what happened after

you built out that buy team?

You had the right messaging

for the right persona for

every member of the buy team.

What did you guys

do with all of that

insight?

Chris: Yeah.

I think there's really

like two phases, right?

That especially at large

organizations, you have

to go through, right?

You have to sell internally

and then sell externally.

I. Uh, it's what I

always say it is product

marketing's role.

So like the first phase is

like sell internally, right?

So I go through and me and

my team go through all of

this data and we see, hey, we

have like a great idea of out

of all of the accounts that

exist that we want sellers and

marketing team to go after.

This set group of

accounts that represent

the largest opportunity.

That doesn't mean anything.

If I'm the only one who

knows that, or my team's the

only one that knows that,

then we have to go to the

head of marketing who we

have to convince to deploy

a campaign and, and actually

have everyone focus around

this and, and take a more

targeted approach instead of.

You know, the evergreen

stuff that's going on or

in addition to, but I also

need to get the sales leader

on board as well, right?

And so this is where taking

a data-driven approach and

like that objective approach

of sales data, product usage

data where you can, and

crafting the right story to

actually go pitch and sell

internally and say, Hey, I.

Let's focus this effort

really like, we can

unlock a lot here.

And so that's what we did.

We went to the head

of marketing, went

to the head of sales.

They were really

excited about it.

We got their buy-in

to go after it.

And then after that you have,

you know, this brief that you

create that is the overview,

the analysis, what the

messaging would look like, who

the personas are, so everyone

can sign off on this brief.

And then that becomes

your source of truth for

what you're gonna go and

deploy and expand upon.

And so from there, you're

spinning up working with

teams to spin up, landing

pages, different ads, pulling

in what case studies you

can use to help fuel those

ads and those landing pages.

Going to the business

development reps, the BDR

team, and equipping them

with messaging within their

sequences, going to the

sales team, letting them

know who they're going to

be talking to and how to.

really get, overcome

objections at different

stages, and so you have this

source of truth that ends

up kind of spreading out

throughout.

Elle: Yeah.

So from doing this super,

maybe it wasn't super

intensive, but you had

a super thorough, I will

say, data analysis to

craft the perfect ICP.

Understand the buy team.

You, you leveraged that to

create a hyper targeted.

Marketing campaign that

empowered both the campaign's,

demand gen side of the house

as well as your sellers.

very, very creative.

Now, what if I were a

PMM that wanted to try to

replicate this in my role?

Right?

So I'm trying to go through

the steps that you outlined.

You talked about.

Uh, being data intensive,

you talked about gong calls.

let's back up a minute and

just very quickly outline

what the steps would be

for PMM to replicate this.

Like one, I think

you said data.

So talk to me about data.

Like what about the data

do I need to look at?

Chris: Yeah.

So first you have to develop

your own conviction, right?

And data is the

best way to do it.

data is always like an

imperfect thing, but it

does get you, down the path,

which is how you kind of

develop your point of view.

So I'd say first,

analyze the sales data.

Right.

Sales data unlocks a

lot of insight into

what's going well.

especially if you're looking

at like what to target.

So you should look at wins

and losses For this, we

focused heavily on wins

because we wanna see how do

we put gasoline on the fire of

what's working.

Elle: Yeah.

You wanna know why you

win?

Yeah.

Chris: that's exactly right.

Right.

And so, 'cause you're also

making a trade off of like,

we are actually making

a decision to not focus.

On some area that

we could focus on.

So it's like where do we win

and how do we accelerate that?

And frankly, you're not gonna

get buy-in internally if you

don't come with data, because

that is the way you actually

get folks to, to think

differently about things.

So that's sales data.

You can layer in product

data where you have it,

that's always like a, a,

a great kicker of like how

your product's being used.

but find that data piece

that helps start your story.

That's the

first step.

Elle: Got it.

Got it.

Okay.

And you mentioned Gong calls.

How do Gong calls play a role?

Chris: So I, and again, I

think this is me coming from

a sales background, is I love

talking to customers and I

love hearing from customers.

And frankly, like one of the,

the interesting pieces of

product marketing is like,

we need to be able to speak

internally on behalf of our

customers, and we need to

speak our customer's language.

And so.

You know, with, Gong and these

other platforms that do the

call recordings, it's, it's

become amazing because I can

be walking my dogs and I can

listen to

any

calls.

Right.

Elle: Yeah.

It's such a powerful

insight for pmms.

It's like un unlimited

customer conversations

at your fingertips.

Chris: it's, the best.

And like all these platforms,

again, there's a

lot of

great

ones.

and the nice thing too is they

now have like AI insights,

so they actually, I. Do these

little summary of notes and

you can like pull out the

ones you want to go listen to.

But, but the whole point

being is you can actually

hear how customers are

talking about their problem,

talking about who they

have to get buy-in from.

And so that is establishing

the voice of the customer.

So now I have this data that

gives me my perspective on

where to focus on, and I'm

going into this meeting

with, again, head of

marketing, head of sales,

maybe head of product.

And I'm not saying.

Hey, this is what

Chris believes.

I'm saying, Hey, this is what

this company is saying and

this company is saying, and

here's what our data says.

So it's like a, it,

it creates a story of

don't take it from me.

Do we wanna like replicate

this with similar

lookalike

customers?

Elle: that's right.

Validation.

Chris: Exactly.

Exactly.

Elle: Yeah.

Right, exactly.

So I wanna circle back to

something that you mentioned

earlier that I thought

was such a good idea.

It probably took

a lot of time.

I imagine a lot of calls,

a lot of deal cycles that

that I've been exposed

to can sometimes be

lengthy and there's a

lot of calls involved.

But you mentioned that

you would hone in on two

or three customers, and

you would listen to every

sales conversation from

deal open to deal close.

I'm curious, anything

surprising from that as

just as a PMM, that's a

lot of sales conversations

to listen into and you

really get insight to

the entire deals cycle.

What, what did you learn?

Anything insightful

or surprising?

Chris: So first, I agree

it does take a lot of

time and you have to find

you know, go for a walk,

listen to a few calls.

Don't be afraid to skip

the 10 minute call.

That's gonna go nowhere.

But I would challenge any

product marketers listening

to this to say like, how

many deals have you been

on from start to finish to

really understand what your

customer, it's the only way

to do it, in my opinion.

So it, it is a worth

it grind out work.

The interesting insight

that I came up with is.

and, and this might seem so

obvious, but it's important

to call it, these are people.

These are real people

with real problems that

have life outside of work.

And the thing is, is they

have very limited time.

We all have such limited time.

We're so busy, and so

people's time is valuable.

And so as a product marketer,

my job is to get to the value.

As quick as possible and

help my salespeople in this

instance get to the value

as quick as possible and

really give them the so what.

And so I had this kind

of enlightened moment, if

you will, of everything

I do that goes external.

I should have that thought.

This person has very

little time and I need

to really value it.

So it's like every ad,

every blog, every customer

story, and every event that

we're bringing people to.

Am I providing them value?

Am I giving them that takeaway

that's not just clickbait

and in it for me, but it's

like they're coming away

with something actionable.

That's what I've

like obsessed about

since going through an

exercise like

Elle: And, and how quickly

can you get to the value

when you're looking at their

time as, being something of

a, that they're giving to you?

Chris: it's exactly right.

Right.

And again, it's like attention

spans are down, time is down.

And like, I want you build

trust by providing value.

And that's, that's really

what our job is.

Elle: Yeah, exactly.

So, okay, you did this

huge data analysis on

your, your sales data.

You focused in on why you win.

You blended that with

voice of customer from

sales conversations.

And then you shot this around

to your marketing leaders,

to the sales leaders.

You've got buy-in, you've

built out the campaign.

This must have been monstrous

to roll out with a lot

of different stakeholders

across sales and marketing.

I guess like talk through

like what did the rollout

process look like?

You know, did, how

did you enable sales?

Did you have to do like

road, internal road

shows or workshops?

You know, like maybe what kind

of content did you have to

prepare for the salespeople?

Chris: Yeah.

Yeah, well, you know better

than anyone, some of the

values of, companies like

Twilio is write it down.

So I think the first thing

is, what I mentioned was

this the source of truth.

Where is the source of

truth that anyone can

go to, to understand

what this initiative is?

And, and again, going back,

even selling internally,

the so what behind it?

Why are we making this bed?

So that first doc that we

went in and get buy-in,

and sometimes it turns into

a deck, it's so important

and people go back to it.

And then you're exactly right.

It does become a

bit of a road show.

so again, the marketing

team you mentioned like

campaign marketing growth,

like those different folks,

you get them on a call and

you go through it, right?

The part that's

important for them.

And then you branch off

into, okay, I need help

with ad creation, creative

that's gonna go into those,

those types of pieces.

I'll get into that

more in a second.

Sales is the same way.

I like to branch off BDR

from, account executives

because I think it's a

slightly different thing.

So then I like to

do A BDR enablement

with the BDR manager.

I like to do sales

enablement with the sales

leaders because they need

to be bought in, as well.

And so it does feel like

a lot, but in those three

conversations, if you

manage your time well,

you can get a lot done.

You just have to be very

specific with what they get.

The, thing that I think is

really important for folks to

look at, 'cause you go, oh,

this is a whole new campaign.

We're spinning up.

We actually used a lot

of previous content

we had, and so you can,

like Retap Creative, you had

content, you had, we looked

at case studies and I, me

and my team read through

case studies and we're like,

okay, we have these four

personas we want to go after.

Where do we have quotes

from those personas and

what case studies, and

then what creative do we

have in those case studies?

Okay, great.

Those are ads.

Quote from that persona,

the creative from that

persona and like that

was able to be reused.

So we didn't need to go

find a new case study.

Right.

You probably have a lot of the

information and then a lot of

the creative and the content.

'cause we have Frame and Adobe

really has a best in class

creative team,

so

anything we produce

is, is, is, top notch.

It's, I mean, it's like

one of the

coolest things ever.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Like people produce unreal

stuff, so like, we're

not gonna go create it

on our own, like as a

product marketing team.

so reuse is good.

And then again, like emails

and, and BDR, like a lot of

that messaging is how do we

give them that structure to,

uh, kind of spin and create

their own, pieces of it, well.

Elle: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting that

you included BDRs.

'cause sometimes I feel

like they're left out of

the enablement process, but

they're so critical in terms

of getting foot in the door.

Chris: there's some of my

favorite.

I

started as A

BDR.

Elle: Yeah.

They're full of energy.

Love it.

Love to the BDRs.

Chris: It's a hard job.

It's a very hard

job, so I, I have a

lot of respect

for, for

Elle: I believe it.

I believe it.

Okay.

So after you launched, what

did this look like from

a customer's perspective?

Like what kind of content

was included in the

scope of the campaign?

Chris: Yeah.

So I, I think this is

the part that like,

was the coolest to me.

'cause it was a, a kind

of like circle the wagon

in the right way, type

of a strategy, right?

So if we go back to like.

Crisp Clothing Inc. Let's

say that was within our

target account list, right?

A CMO is getting specific

ads that are targeted.

They're probably not getting

the initial outreach from

sales or BDRs 'cause they're

too high up and we know we

need to build a champion,

but they're getting like

brand differentiation,

those types of messaging.

a little bit later

in the process.

But like we really, from

the start, it was like.

Video creatives and creative

leaders or creative ops

leaders getting a set message,

having BDRs hit them with

a very specific message.

We were actually sending them

a lot around case studies and

proof, so it is again, like

a, don't take it from us.

We were leading with insights

and things that would be like,

here's someone in a similar

company in a similar or role.

Doing it.

We should talk about how you

could do this for your org.

So really insights

driven messaging and ads.

And then like I said, as

we open the door, we're

not turning off the engine.

That's, our job's

not done there.

We know that eventually

this is gonna go to A CMO.

So at that point, yes, we

do want them to get ads.

We do want them to start

seeing frame in our

brand, in their messaging.

And the same thing that we

started talking about is, um.

IT and procurement.

Very similar thing like

security type messaging

and, and ROI type messaging

because at some point

someone internally is

going to have to sell that.

And, and the thing that I

always go back to with our

team is those folks, they

are best in class creatives.

They were never

hired to be sellers.

Selling stuff

internally is hard.

We have challenges selling

stuff internally, so like

we know they're gonna be

putting themselves on the

line at some point when

we're not in the room.

So how do we help surround it

and build that story for them?

And then we had ROI

calculators and presentations

that they could share

internally at the right

time to build that

Elle: Very cool.

So empowering the

champion as well.

Yeah, very smart.

What I think is so

sophisticated is that you

have this buy team that

you've identified, and then

you have this, hyper targeted

content that ladders up to

each member of the buy team,

but timing of everything.

When you're doing an A

BM campaign, that must

be so sophisticated.

'cause you have, however, X

number of accounts, I'm just

gonna throw out a hundred.

Even if you have

thousands, right?

You have that many accounts,

but then that many individual

stakeholders within those

accounts that you're trying

to engage with, but you

wanna hit 'em at the right

time, that's appropriate

for that specific account.

I guess how did you do that?

Like, how did you

figure that out?

I realize it's probably a

multi-pronged solution across.

Sales and marketing, but

any insights you can share?

Chris: I mean, I think

there's a lot of great systems

to like, systematically

run those programs now.

And a lot of folks on my

marketing team a lot smarter

than me who can help.

You know, we, we've always

heard the, the message

wherever you go of like engage

the right person at the right

time with the right message.

And so, you know, luckily

there's a lot of technology

out there to go and

do that the right way.

It's never going to be.

Perfect.

But again, I think like going

back to being able to even

look at personas and lead

with the right message is

a big piece of it, right?

Because like I think

sometimes we go, oh, okay,

like we want to talk about

how great our product is.

It.

no one cares.

We, they want to know what

it's gonna do for them.

And I think, you know, I'm

pretty realistic in knowing

that like A CMO is probably

not gonna like, just cold want

to talk to us or, you know,

even a chief creative officer,

like they're gonna need to

build up something internally.

And so our thing is like,

hey, when you go into

these accounts, even

as A BDR, it's like.

Instead of focusing any

messages on maybe that

like C-suite at the start,

like, let's go director

level, let's go manager

level, let's do the creative

technologist, now let's do

the video creative and let's

massage those messages.

And then we have a team that

can turn on the engine of

the CMOs and build that case.

And at that

point, account executive

gets involved too, and

they kind of have the

clout sales leaders can get

involved and reached out.

And now we have this

executive level engagement

that we can

pull

on.

Elle: It is so sophisticated,

so coordinated.

I love it.

So great.

okay, last question for

you on this topic, Chris.

Let's say, um, you know,

for our product marketers

out there who are working

on it, ICP strategy, they're

so inspired by your story.

They wanna go out and,

and build a campaign for

their ICP or a narrative.

What advice do

you have for them?

Chris: Be customer

obsessed, like fall in

love with your customers.

they will take you to.

what the answer is honestly,

I think sometimes we try to

like over-engineer our own

thought process and stuff

around these and, and find

that like silver bullet.

Just understand your

customers, listen to them

and they will tell you

exactly what you need to do.

So just be

obsessed with them.

Elle: I love it.

You wear the customer's shoes.

It's such a great value.

Okay.

All right, so now it is

time for our next segment.

This is such a fun segment.

It's the message critique.

so Chris, this is where

we as product marketing

experts get to analyze

real world messaging.

Um, here's the fun part.

You, my guests get to

choose the company.

Uh, so before we get

started, I wanna share

some ground rules.

So you're gonna pick the

company, we're gonna talk

through three things.

First, you're gonna tell

me one thing that you

love about the company's

product or messaging,

like what's working,

what's really standing

out about the product.

And then second, you're

gonna share something

you wish the PMM maybe

would've done differently.

Maybe it's something

that could have made

the message clearer or

stronger, more impactful.

Use a customer story.

It could be any

number of things.

And then third.

tell me how they can

iterate or take the message

to the next level or

their creative campaigns.

They could do cool content,

they could think about,

something of that nature.

so no negativity, just a

thoughtful, constructive,

super fun critique.

Ready to go.

Chris: Yep.

This is perfect.

Let's do

it.

Elle: Okay.

So tell me about a product

or company that may have

caught your attention.

I.

Chris: Okay.

I am going to go with

one that has been on my

mind, quite a lot lately.

It's superhuman.

Have you heard of Superhuman?

I.

Elle: Only when you mentioned

it to me the other day,

but I have not otherwise

had not heard of them.

So I'm going to

superhuman.com.

Chris: Go to superhuman.com.

It is, you know, if

you wanna know what

it is, big line here.

But it is the most productive

email app ever made.

which is intriguing, but

it's basically, better way

to go about your email.

that's like the simple

way that I would put it.

I don't use it.

I've just heard about it

and I've been looking at

them, quite a bit from a

product standpoint, which is

interesting.

Elle: So I pull up

their homepage and

super clean, very crisp.

Their big headline is

say, four hours per

person every single week.

So that tells me right

away, okay, the value

is gonna be time save.

But tell me more

about the messaging.

What are you loving about it?

Chris: Yeah, so this one's

interesting because the

headline doesn't say what

it is, but it gives you the,

so what, which I think is

actually really interesting.

So save four hours

that brings me in.

I like that.

so I do feel the, so what

there, and then that, first

line that I mentioned,

it's the most productive

email app ever made.

Very

mean, my, my big thing is I do

not need to scroll to actually

figure out objectively.

What it is, I now know

what it is and the so what

behind it without having a

scroll, whether I'm on my

laptop or I'm on my phone,

it's all above the fold.

and I get it.

And then, you know, I

think it's supported here.

Collaborate faster, get more

done with AI powered email.

would say like that kind

of got pulled with the,

say four hours as well.

I like the idea

of collaboration.

AI powered email.

I think everyone's

putting AI and they're

either H one or H two.

but very descriptive is, is

what I like and very easy to

consume

at

the

Elle: I love that.

I love that.

One thing, curious about your

perspective on this feedback

that I've gotten multiple

times in my career is, to

avoid using absolute language.

So for example, they

have Superhuman, is the

most productive email

app ever, ever made?

that's a pretty

bold statement.

Well, I'm just curious

your thoughts on it.

Chris: I agree.

I think it is bold.

It's a good point.

I think, back it with data and

so I think like one of the,

one of the pieces I'd say here

is like, you have such a great

stat with save four hours

per person every single week.

And I think even if you

scroll down, it's like

saves teams over 15 million

hours every single year.

Fly through your email

twice as fast as before.

So like the one thing I would

probably think about, but,

but I agree where it's, you

know, is it the most, do I

have to say it's the most, do

I believe that as a prospect?

I think maybe a little

bit of messaging around.

Why it saves like,

what is that?

other piece could be

interesting there, right?

We're a little loose

with most productive.

We're a little loose

with collaborate

faster, get more done.

It's like what is the

thing that makes you

be able to do that?

That would be one

thing I would try to

probably massage out in

that

H

Elle: Sure.

Yeah.

I'm kind of surprised

that the first thing they

put on there is that it's

built for Gmail or Outlook.

That must be for their

customers, something

like a top priority, not

differentiator necessarily,

but capability that they

would need to highlight.

I'm surprised that the AI

powered inbox assistant

isn't higher, but I'm not

their target customer, so.

I wouldn't necessarily know,

but I do love the stats

that they throw out here.

Chris: I love

the stats and I actually

love that email is the

biggest problem hiding

in plain sight, which is

further down the page.

I'm wondering if they ever

explored pulling that up

'cause it's such a yes.

I. Problem statement and like

this is like their messaging

doc on a page, which is cool.

Like we spend hours on

email, we often reply late.

That's, yep.

I feel that.

don't even reply.

Yep.

I feel that we lose deals.

It's

like, well what does that lead

to?

Makes sense?

Like you and you start

saying, we lose deals.

Okay.

This is for salespeople.

Block our teams.

Oh, it's for more than

salespeople, miss our goals.

We all feel that

not anybody's fault.

Like this is actually

like such a great

messaging statement.

I'm like, Ooh, do we

consider pulling this up?

AB tested a little bit.

Try to get problem

statement up a bit.

so, so they have some

like really good stuff

littered in throughout.

Elle: They do a really

good job with empathy

in articulating that

through their copy.

Chris: Yes.

And that is the thing.

We all get overwhelmed

with email and they're

like, it's not your fault.

It's like, but we

all, we all do.

so it is interesting when

you talked about like most

productive, it, it, you

scroll down, they obviously

do superhuman AI that they

probably had to introduce

as their first scroll, but

when they get into their

value props like respond

faster to what matters most.

It's like, that's another

one I would actually

probably think about

pulling up higher because

that feels tangible to me.

So they have like a lot

of.

Great messaging and it's

very, what I love is I

scroll is like follow

up on time every time.

Share and comment with you.

It's, it is very

clean, succinct.

I see it right as I say it

and it keeps hooking me to

go deeper and

deeper, which

Elle: it does.

It does.

Great job.

Superhuman pmms.

We love it.

10 outta 10.

Chris: Love it.

Huge fan.

So it is good.

And like you said,

it's, it's clean, it's

creative centric on the

start too, which is nice.

I

like to see that.

Elle: Yeah.

Yeah.

So when we were chatting

ahead of this conversation,

you mentioned maybe another

company you were looking at.

Do you still have

them on your mind?

Chris: I do, I do.

So the other one, which I

use a lot and I'm sure people

have heard is Airtable.

so again.

Of course.

as part of this fun exercise,

like you start looking at

all of the, the companies

and, you know, pick ones.

And I, I, I love Airtable.

I think it's amazing.

There's a, an individual who,

used to be at, at Frame io.

She was an absolute power

user of Airtable to show

like all of the things

that you could do with it.

It's an

amazing, amazing,

Elle: Yeah, I've used it at

like almost every company

I've ever looked at for

as long as I can remember.

Yeah,

Chris: and it really is great.

It has this like simplicity

yet, you know, there's a

lot of power behind it,

but it's an interesting

space right now, right?

Because a lot of these, what

I would call as a novice,

like project management

tools are like a better

version of a spreadsheet.

'cause we all end

up falling back to

spreadsheets like they are.

Becoming a lot more.

And it's interesting

to see like what space

they're going after.

So we go into this

one and we see digital

operations for the AI era.

You mentioned this

on superhuman.

I'm not the persona, probably

buyer persona

for

Airtable.

I don't

think I don't know what

digital operations is.

I mean, I get it as I say

it, but I'm like, is that a

category they're going after?

Maybe it's a Forest or

Gartner kind of thing.

AI era.

you know, I think it's like.

Okay.

And then when I see create

modern business apps to

manage and automate critical

processes, I, my thing is,

is like, are they an AI app

builder or are they trying

to do that?

That was the piece that

I was like, huh, what is

Elle: Yeah, right.

Would this be like for

the COO business unit org?

Like who is this for?

Is it for PMs, is it

for, yeah, it's really

hard to decipher.

Chris: it's a little,

you know, ambiguous.

And it might be because it's

new category creation and

ai and frankly, like I do

know this, like Airtable.

Can be so much, but that

can also be overwhelming

as a prospect or a user

or someone looking at it.

And so I really empathize

with the product marketers

for Airtable because it's

like, how do you, not over

promise, but you still

paint the like picture of

where, where it's going

and where they need to go.

But when I see modern business

apps, I'm not really sure

that can mean so

much different thing,

especially with like

AI coders and things

like that coming out

in the world.

Elle: So when I scroll

down, I see agility at

scale for every function

and immediately I think So

you're everything to everyone,

Chris: Yes,

Elle: which is what all

the, all the strategy gurus

out there say not to do.

so, but I'm curious, you know,

what, what advice do you have

for the pmms over at Airtable?

What do you think they

need to do with first,

first order of business?

Chris: So this is where I go

back to ICP and my exercise.

Like I know that they want

to evolve and push the

envelope and go, but I think

we all, like, I would also

encourage to look at where

can you win and is it within

like the core competency?

'cause it's, they're pushing

a lot of explore app building,

and like that modern business

app and those pieces.

And I totally get that, but

I'd be like, how do I get

someone to get the aha moment

without scrolling and above?

The, the fold.

I think that is

the, the big piece.

And, and to be honest,

like my advice would

be can we simplify?

that's what I would be looking

at because as someone who

uses Airtable, I don't use

it in any of the way that

I see on this homepage.

And

so I think it's

what

they

want businesses.

that's

Elle: so interesting.

Chris: Yeah.

Elle: Wow.

That's very,

very surprising.

Chris: And so it's like

how do we make sure we

make it obvious and make it

very simple and then earn

the right to expand the

opportunities from there?

So go back to ICP and core

use cases.

Elle: Right, right.

Or perhaps they're trying

to do a pivot, and the

use case that you are

most familiar with is no

longer like a strategic

focus for the company,

but even in that case.

Still focusing on ICP for

this new use case would be

helpful to tell, to get their,

their story to be a little

punchier, a little clearer.

Chris: Yeah.

I mean, and it, it

is a great point.

Like as they push into

these areas, it's like maybe

they already have a lot of

traction in, in other areas.

I just always question 'em.

Like there's a lot of people

do, a lot of, most people use

it the way, you know, I and

our teams use it, and then I.

You know, they're,

they're pushing someone

else, but how do you

get, how do you get both?

And then like, I'm kind

of interested in like,

how do I get there?

Right now it feels

a bit overwhelming.

It's like, what would I

want to do within like

marketing that they have on

this page of like automate

campaign creation, execution,

drive sales, and improve.

that's not the

way I ever saw it.

And

so,

It's interesting.

It's really

interesting.

Elle: It's interesting.

I am very curious though,

about what the imagery

that they have that

show kind of some of the

vision or capabilities.

it, it gets me intrigued.

I'll

Chris: So I love that

you call this out, and

I actually think this is

a really important one.

I'd, I'd love your take on

this is I love product imagery

on

website,

Elle: yes.

I'm, I'm for it.

Yes.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

I don't like illustrations

No, gimme the screenshot.

I wanna see what it does.

Chris: Yes, I, I

completely agree.

And so like, again, frame

IO beauty of it is our

product designers are

best in class as well.

So like I love our ui,

which is good 'cause I

am in product marketing

there, so I want it all

over the place, everywhere.

I'm glad you feel the same

because I just want someone to

be able to like read and then

quickly get the

visuals

so they

Elle: Yeah.

The thing is when you don't

use real product imagery

and you just have some maybe

attractive, but it's just

an illustration to me that

as a customer that tells me

that something's not real.

You don't have something

that's actually real.

So it, it diminishes

my faith or, or it, um,

kind of puts some, uh.

I guess question into

mind into how much of

what you're showing me

is actually a capability

versus just marketing fluff.

Chris: Which I think is so

important in this AI era.

Let's go

back to their, their

call

because but I think a lot

of executives and customers

are challenged with.

Is this real or is this

just part of the pitch?

And so to your point, I think

as we start to like push the

envelope of what's real versus

what's not, the ability to

show it and bring it to life

is, is absolutely critical.

And honestly, I think it

could be a differentiator

when being compared

against other companies.

Elle: I totally

agree with you.

Very helpful.

Alright, Airtable.

We love your product.

We're very intrigued.

We wanna hear, more.

Okay.

So Chris, before we go, I

wanna have a gratitude moment

and say thank you so much

for your willingness to come

on and share your expertise

with me and the PM community.

Thank you so much.

I know I personally get so

inspired by conversations

like this and truthfully

makes me wonder how my

guests get to be so amazing.

So, I know for me the way that

I've grown as a PMM is I've

been shaped and my skills have

been honed in by the pmms that

surrounded me in my career.

So I wanna ask you, who

are one or two pmms who

have really impacted

you in your career?

Chris: You of course for

bringing me on the this show.

I really do

appreciate it

and it's awesome to be working

with a great PMM and,

and think through

these different things.

'cause that's

how we learn too.

But I, you know, throughout my

career I've been really lucky.

I had Scott Fallon,

Collin Zaleski, who

got me into product

marketing, uh, originally.

Uh, at a startup I was

at, they are absolutely

amazing at Twilio.

Was lucky to work for

Vanessa Thompson and then

Dave Berg, and then work

with Taylor Del, and, and all

actually like very different

types of pmms, which is an

absolutely amazing thing.

And then, you know, like I

said, frame io I, we are a

product for creatives and

my, manager is, his name is.

Amazing PMM crafts,

like unreal narratives.

He also like used to

shoot commercials, so

comes from like an ultra

creative background.

he's unbelievable.

And so, um, you know, I've

never been like, challenged

to push myself more than,

than I have with him.

And so I just keep getting

luckier and luckier honestly,

as I, I have all my career.

So I am very humble and

very grateful and have

a lot of hard work to do

to, to consider myself a

good PMM.

Elle: Oh, that's awesome.

I'm sure they're so,

flattered to hear that.

Amazing.

Okay, my last question

for you, Chris.

Where else can we

access your expertise?

Is it just best to

find you on LinkedIn?

Chris: Yes.

as a, uh, LinkedIn fan person,

and that's where I started

my career.

That

is the

place

to go, uh, for all,

all networking.

But yes, please

find me on LinkedIn.

Please reach out and connect.

Um,

Elle: We,

Chris: Happy to

talk to, to product

marketers.

Elle: Again, thank you so

much Chris, and thank you

PMM listeners for coming on

this adventure with us today.

I hope this episode leaves

you with inspiration to take,

uh, with you in the next

steps in your own journey.