Product Marketing Adventures

Elle: Finding product market

fit is one of the hardest

things A PMM will ever do

and even harder is knowing

when you don't have it.

Today's guest has

seen both sides.

When the market wants

your product so badly, it

practically sells itself, and

when it just doesn't land.

So how do you know

the difference?

What signals should you

look for and what's the

product marketer's role in

helping the team find product

market fit or walk away

when it just isn't there?

Well, you're

about to find out.

It's my pleasure to welcome

Prav Dish Bondi to the show.

Prav is one of the sharpest

product marketers in tech.

Let me tell you why.

At Twilio, he launched high

scale messaging products and

worked on developer first

go-to-market strategies.

At Modern Treasury, he faced

the challenge of building

narrative and demand in

a new FinTech category.

And now at OpenAI,

he's helping define the

go-to-market playbook

for Frontier AI products,

ones that are reshaping

industries in real time.

Pranav has lived the highs

and lows of product market

fit, and today he's going to

help us make sense of it all.

Pranav, welcome to the show.

Pranav: Yeah, so

happy to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Elle: Of course.

Okay, so let's dive right in.

So for the first segment

of our show, let's kick

it off with a tour of your

career through the lens

of product market fit.

Okay.

So let's start with.

Time when you didn't find

product market fit, can you

share some experiences, you

know, maybe around Twilio

or early on in your career

when the products just

weren't hitting quite right?

Pranav: Yeah, so, so when I,

when I first joined Twilio,

it was mostly an SMS and

voice company, and I. If

any of your listeners have

been following Twilio, there

was a time when it was kind

of like this revelation.

The ability to just like

send a text message with one

API call was a huge deal.

We take it for now, and

Twilio pioneered that.

They built an incredible

developer experience.

Um, in some ways also like.

Invented the discipline

of developer marketing.

And so because of all of that,

like by the time I joined the

company, the product market

fit was insane and the company

was growing like crazy.

Uh, they went public within

a year and a half of me

joining, and uh, they decided

to start building out more

of a platform, launching

more products associated with

communications that could help

sort of beef up the portfolio

or differentiate the company

and in general, provide

more avenues for growth.

So one of the products I

worked on before I left

was this product called

Twilio Autopilot, which

was essentially an EPI

that allowed companies to

build their own natural

language powered chat

bots and voice bots.

And this was before LLM,

uh, this was back in 2019.

When ai, especially the

kinds, uh, of models that

we're used to today, you

know, things like chat,

GPT just point around.

So it's very, very early on,

but we were starting to see

signs that, you know, a lot

of scenarios we could get

computers to actually converse

people in the reliable ways.

And Twilio wanted to plug

that into the communications

channels that they built.

And so they started working on

this product called Autopilot

that I joined when it was

very, very early on, um, where

it had just come out of where

it was just in beta actually.

And because I'd come from

this world, you know,

where product market fit,

especially having worked

on SMSM voice was something

I didn't even think about.

I kind of carried through

that mindset to autopilot and.

Even though I, I

had like a fantastic

experience learning there.

When I look back on my

time, I realize that that

assumption really like,

just like undergirded

everything I focused on.

And in hindsight, if I

would've kept that more in

mind and actually questioned

that assumption, I would've

done things differently.

And what I mean by that

is like with autopilot,

there are a lot of

different areas where.

You know, and I can tell

you more that in hindsight

there just wasn't that

staying power and that that

fundamentally changes like

what you need to do as A PMM.

As A PMM, you always, you

have to be optimistic about

what you're working on, but

you also need to find where

things are not working and

figure out how to fix them.

And that was like a

big learning for me.

Elle: So tell us

more about that.

You know, what were the

signs that autopilot

just wasn't landing?

Pranav: Yeah.

Yeah.

So like there were, like,

I, I, I break that down

into three things and

you know, it can be.

A lot of times with, with

products, and we've spoken

about this before, like it

can be a messaging issue.

It can be a distribution

issue, or it can

be a product issue.

In this case, it was primarily

like a, a core product issue

to start off with, because

Twilio had the distribution,

we had no shortage of

customers willing to test

auto buy that at the time.

'cause every company

out there was interested

in using Twilio.

Uh, their business was

growing, especially

for things like.

Contact center and

customer service.

And so telling customers that,

hey, we have this chat bot

platform where you can just

plug into your Twilio SMS or

into your, into your contact

center, was something anyone

would've wanted to try out.

'cause.

The promise was there of like

automating a lot of these

routine customer inquiries.

Right?

So it was definitely not

a distribution issue, it

was not a messaging issue.

The ROI is pretty obvious

when, when it comes to

something like this and,

well, you, we had an

even additional layer of

differentiation, which was

around programmability and

customization, which was

something a lot of legacy

systems at the time lacked.

But the reason they didn't

really take off was.

Fundamentally had to do

with the fact that the

core tech, the model

underneath just wasn't

there, wasn't ready yet.

It required a lot

of handholding, a

lot of hard coding.

It was like orders of

magnitude less capable than

even like the smallest,

cheapest LLM you can find.

Um, so that was a huge,

that was a huge reason

why it didn't work.

And then also it was almost.

I know I signed

customizability, but a lot

of times, uh, what we, what

I realized was that it was

almost like too customizable

to the point, to the point

where like, it was really,

it was too low level.

It was really hard for

customers to go in and

program it to complete

certain flows or to do

certain things reliably

or to write a lot of code.

The code was very brittle.

So that just like put

a barrier to adoption

beyond a certain point

and beyond customers

actually putting them in

front of their customers.

Elle: Yeah.

Okay.

So you said so much here that

I wanna unpack before we move

on to to your next example.

So you mentioned that just

because it was Twilio, you

had customers flocking to it.

So you had this like halo

effect of Twilio when you

launch this new product.

Do you think I, and

I guess like what

guidance would you have?

For A PMM who's like starting

to maybe work at like a big

company and they're trying

to, you know, establish or

test for product market fit

for a new offering, how long

should they explore this?

Before they realize that

like, oh, this is just the

halo effect of my brand

versus I straight up do not

have product market fit.

Like is there like

a time period they

should be looking for?

Maybe that's more, maybe

that's a time period isn't

the right, you know, metric.

But can you speak a

little bit more to that?

Pranav: Yeah, for sure.

And that's a really good

and very difficult question

'cause most products go

through this phase where

they haven't quite made it

yet and they haven't failed.

And that sort of uncanny value

is very tricky to navigate

for everybody involved, right?

From the people building

it to the people selling

and marketing it like us.

And so in a, in a big

company, what confounds

that even more is there's

a lot of false signal from

the halo effect, right?

Like people will try it

out and you can just, you

can point to like a hundred

pilots going on and say,

great, this thing's working.

There's a pilot going on.

Actually, I think what you

need to look for is like, how

much are they paying for this?

How much are they actually

willing to invest in using

this thing is the most, sure.

A lot of times that can

take time to path out for it

to actually commercialize,

but early indicators

can be anything ranging

from how frequently are

they interacting with.

Your customer support staff

or your sales engineers,

like what is the level

of interest that you're

seeing from these pilots

or from these customers?

Are you having to like prod

them constantly to, are they

coming to you that those are

just some like qualitative

signals you can use to

start building an intuition

about how much of this is

actually solving a customer

problem for something that

is just being tried out

because it's available to

them, because they have

a, with your company,

Elle: how much are

you handholding?

With their, your beta users

and how much investment

they're needing to

make, that's beyond the

anticipated investment.

Pranav: And how much

are they pulling the

product out of you?

Right?

Like how much are they,

like, give me more.

Or like, we figure out why

this isn't working versus you.

You're constantly checking

in on them saying, Hey,

what do you think of this?

Or like, Hey, did you

buy this thing out yet?

Um, that balance helps

you figure that out.

Elle: Yeah.

Those are some signals

that you should dig

a little deeper.

A question about just

investment in general.

You're talking about like with

the Twilio example, right?

That there was a fundamental

issue with just how

the product was built.

How do you know whether it's

like a small pivot and or

like a change to the roadmap?

Yeah.

Or like a significant

like, Hey, we just gotta

like abandon ship because

it just won't work.

Like, is it like a dollar

amount and is that a dollar

amount part of your product

market fit, like test?

Not, not that you

have one, but,

Pranav: oh man, that's

probably the hardest.

I. Question to answer and I,

I don't know if there's like a

very well defined thumb rule.

Thumb rule for that.

Elle: It's probably a

combination of stakeholders

in the room getting together

and analyzing some metrics.

Pranav: Yeah, I think it's

also the opportunity cost

for your company, right?

Like, um, I. Do you have

other stuff that can work

or do you have other ideas

that can work that, that

these are the same resources,

the same people that are

working on this thing for a

while, you know, have, uh,

can dive, devote their time

to, but I think another way

to maybe think about it more

systematically is you should

have a hypothesis for, um,

one, if this product succeeds.

How much do you feel like

you want to charge for it?

And then also how much ROI

customers can get for how

much you're charging for, or

maybe walk backwards, like how

much ROI are they getting it?

And figure out how

much to charge.

And then like, okay, how much

time will they theoretically

take to the best of your

knowledge to get that ROI?

And then look at customers

who've hit that threshold

and then see how many of

those customers you have.

And if you get to a

point where you're like.

A majority of these customers

just haven't hit that

threshold or a majority of

customer conversations get

to that point and they just

don't adopt the product, even

though it's available to them

via the existing contract

that they have, then things

are not looking so great,

and then maybe you should

think of yourself more and

they're like, Hey, we haven't

quite figured out product

market fit for this yet.

Rum.

Elle: Yeah, I think it's a

really smart way to start

with total cost of ownership

for the customer and.

Try to anticipate to the

best of your ability what

that ROI is gonna be and then

working backwards from there.

Very helpful takeaway.

Okay, so now I want to move

on to your next example for

your time at Modern Treasury.

Tell us about your experience

with product market fit there.

Pranav: That's actually

where I learned the most

about product market

fit and its importance.

I would say I hadn't quite

internalized the trio lesson

I was telling you about

before I joined Modern

Treasury, and when I looked

back on both ex experiences

together, that's when things

started to click for me

and I started like actually

want to write about it to

like certify my thoughts.

But, and joined Modern

Treasury right after

Twilio as their first

marketing hire essentially.

Um, and so I over two

years built the product

marketing team there.

Um, also worked on other

things like SEO websites.

I was

Elle: gonna say, you're

gonna wear every marketing

hat there is out there.

Pranav: Exactly.

And then I think a lot of

startups, and if, and if

your listeners are like, you

know, working at startups or.

Looking to transition to

startups, like I think

they're probably aware that

when you're a ppro PMM at

a startup, um, you actually

do whatever it takes to grow

whatever it takes to actually

move the product forward.

So that experience was really

valuable to me, and it's still

like really, really useful.

Even, even at OpenAI.

And when I joined the company,

it was about 14 people.

I think they had customers

and they had paying customers,

which was even better, but.

What I didn't look at as

critically is how were

those paying customers

actually being acquired?

Like, and, and were they

using modern treasury

for the same thing?

So for people who aren't

familiar with the company,

it started off as a new

type of FinTech platform

where you could almost

like imagine it as a modern

transaction and software layer

on top of legacy banking.

Uh, providing APIs and

software to enable ev anyone

to streamline B2B payments

using bank rails so that,

you know, you could do them

cheaper, faster, et cetera.

But obviously we have

to work with the bank.

So their business model

is also a little untested,

actually quite untested at

the time, which relied on.

Banks actually also signing a

contract with your customer.

'cause the bank needed

to facilitate a tran

modern treasury was

the layer on top of it.

So it was always like this

two eight deal where the

customer had to both, I.

Select the bank and also

wanna work with modern.

Yeah,

Elle: A little

more complicated.

Yeah.

Pranav: Yeah.

I mean, signing a deal with

just two counterparties

itself is complicated.

So, yeah.

And I can

Elle: imagine in finance,

the deals are, you know, just

with the regulatory stuff

that comes with just being

in that industry in general.

Not exactly like

an easy signature.

Pranav: Yeah, for sure.

So you go from having

like one relationship.

To like effectively three

where like you and your

customer, the customer in

the bank and the customer

and, and you and the bank all

need to be on the same page.

Right?

So that was new and you

know, if it was gonna work,

it would've been incredible.

'cause then, you know, you

get this situation where

companies are able to move

money very quickly, uh, with

a lot of transparency at

a fraction of the cost of

using credit card rails and

other payment methods, right?

Or using.

Companies like Stripe

who act like third party

intermediaries where they

take more of a cut of

the transaction, but they

provide a lot of convenience

and speed, and so there

are lot of things that

were untested about it

when I was there, when I

was there at my treasury.

And so I would say the thing

that I, I probably learned

the most about product market

fit, there was this thing

that I think we'll keep coming

back to in this conversation,

which is the importance of

repeatable sales, which is.

The first set of customers at

Modern Treasury acquired were,

you know, early adopters,

startups, a couple of large

companies that had just come

in through like word of mouth,

founder sales, VC networks.

Generally how most startups

acquire their companies,

uh, their full customers.

But to go from that to

a scalable GTM motion,

you actually need

to figure out, okay.

What are the use cases?

Who are the buyers?

Um, and what are the triggers

for them to want to, and how

often do they want to buy?

Um, and how much are

they willing to pay?

And you need to be able to

like do that in a scalable way

where you actually see like

multiple instances of the same

deal happening consistently.

When you get to that point,

that's actually when I think

you have strong, like create

product market fit, at

least within that segment.

And then as a PMM, what you

focus on is very different.

I. Compared to when

you don't have that.

And so you, you kind of need

to like almost operate in two

modes as a PR in my opinion.

Like, Hey, are you in PMF?

If you're in PMF, great.

There's a different set

of things you need to do.

If you're not, there's

a different set of

things you need to do.

Elle: Yeah.

So let's talk a little

bit about what you would

do differently if you

were to have, you know,

maybe a second chance.

With modern Treasury, is

there anything you could have

done differently, I guess?

Like would you

have prioritized

different research?

What would you have done?

Pranav: Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, the things that I did

were very typical PMM things.

When I first joined, I

like worked on the website.

I started to write

our positioning docs.

I, I spend a lot of

time obviously, like

listening to calls and

trying to be in front.

Customers and understand

the market and compare being

Elle: the informed

product marketer.

Yeah, yeah,

Pranav: yeah.

And so the, I'll continue,

I obviously do the, the

competitive side of things

and talking to users and

customers regularly, like

that's important regardless

of where you are on the.

Whether it's like weak or

strong PMF, but actually

focusing your time on

writing docs and Desi and

like writing the perfect

copy for your website.

Like I probably

wouldn't have done that.

'cause that only works

when you actually have

confidence that you have

a scalable motion because.

The investment you put into

the positioning and the copy

for that website is actually

worth it 'cause you actually

know what to say and to whom.

Whereas here I was just trying

to, you know, write, create

copy that was not necessarily

based on how people bought

the product, how they

thought about the product.

And so I would've instead

just actually focused more on.

Trying to figure out what

I can do to get these

repeatable sales going.

So from a marketing

standpoint, you kinda have

to wear more of like a demand

gen growth hat where you

figure out, okay, what are the

assets, what are the channels

that I need to focus on?

I. Order to actually

go validate like, hey,

who is actually, what

are the use cases?

Who's actually buying it?

Test our assumptions

Elle: is, yeah, I was

gonna say, is it like

experimenting with ICP,

like your ideal customer

profile and like evolving

and iterating that based on

like constant experimenting?

Pranav: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's actually a

much more succinct way

to say it, which is.

When you don't have

that repeatable sale,

you don't have a ICP

Elle: or it's

not the right ICP

Pranav: or it's not

the Yeah, exactly.

You and, and felt like at the

time we had 20 different ICPs.

'cause we had, we fought,

you know, whatever, 30

deals across multiple

different types of people.

So you actually should

think critically.

Okay.

Who are these people?

Can we group them together?

Can they be sold to in a

repeatable way and then

decide what to focus on?

Elle: Yeah.

So can you compare and

contrast for me then like

the difference between not

having product market fit,

both with autopilot at Twilio

and then modern treasury?

What were kind of like

the reasons why between

both that you didn't

have product market fit?

Pranav: So at Twilio it

was definitely primarily.

An issue with the product

and the form factor and

the underlying technology

and modern treasury.

The risk was both the

product risk, which I

think to me was secondary.

'cause I think they, at

the time they had a really

good engineering team.

They were, they were like

very creative, building great

products and the product

demoed like really well.

So I wasn't that scared

about, or like anxious about

like the product itself and

its ability to scale up.

It was more about like

the business model and the

market risk, and that was

primarily why I think the

product market fit at Modern

Treasury didn't exist.

Whereas with Twilio, it

was more about like, Hey,

they just didn't have

the right infrastructure,

the right foundational

technology to deliver

what they were promising.

Elle: Yeah.

Got it.

Okay.

That's really helpful to

give some potential reasons

why you don't have product

market fit, because I guess

what I'm hearing is that.

In some cases, when you

don't have product market

fit, it doesn't mean that

you abandoned the idea.

It doesn't mean that it's

completely a sinking ship.

It just means you need

to focus your attention

somewhere and iterate.

Maybe it's iterate on

the product roadmap.

Maybe it's just

iterating on the ICP.

Is that something that

you'd say is accurate?

Pranav: For sure, it's, and

also it's a journey, right?

It's not like a

point in time thing.

Like, so tomorrow you wake up

and you can declare that, hey,

we have product market fit.

It's more about like

constantly thinking about,

to your point, like.

Who is the ICP and are

they getting value?

Is that happening repeatably?

Like those are

three questions.

Keep asking yourself that.

Like every single day,

Elle: I was gonna say

product market fit, then you

could have it one day and

not have it the other day.

Where I guess like when

there's a shift in the

market, or when things

change and evolve as your

ICP evolves, then maybe

you need to reevaluate.

Do we have product

market fit still?

Pranav: Yeah, and if you

look at a lot of these AI

companies, for example.

Especially the ones who

were very early on building

on foundation models.

A lot of them went from like

not having product market fit.

To having an insane product

market fit in a matter of

weeks because model came

out or the capabilities

improved to the point where

what they were doing was

suddenly a great experience

and you were like, okay,

I'm willing to pay for it.

So that can happen too.

So I think, yeah, asking

yourself those three questions

like really important.

Elle: Yeah.

Okay.

So this is a good segue,

which is just really funny.

As you were talking about.

Autopilot.

You mentioned that this like

way before we had like LMS

and everything and it was

basically a, a bot, right.

And it's hilarious because

now at least my understanding,

if you use the word

bot, it actually has a

negative connotation to it.

A negative association, I

think immediately, like scam.

So it's hilarious because

that's just an example of

how the market has shifted.

And we don't use

that word anymore.

Now it's you have

to use LLM or ai.

If you use bot, you're

gonna go straight

into the trash can.

Pranav: Yeah, yeah.

Bots are definitely,

have, have like tremendous

negative connotations

both from like spam bots

obviously, and that, yeah.

Like a lot of the rules-based

bots that, that off reach

autopilot was one, like

nobody's ever convinced by it.

Like, you know, people

have been trying to

automate customer service.

AI 20 years, and I

think we only now have.

The breakthrough we needed.

Elle: Yeah.

Okay.

So like, let's

talk about it then.

Um, let's compare and contrast

the experiences with product

market fit that you had at

Twilio and Modern Treasury

with now your time at OpenAI.

Talk about what the

signs looked like and

how they were different.

Pranav: Yeah, so, uh, I, I

work on the PI platform and,

and focus on developers, so.

Uh, the team I work on

primarily cares about,

one, ensuring developers

adopt the tools and models

that we're releasing, that

they build with them, that

they power all of these

new businesses and help

everyone from like startups

to enterprises transform.

And build new products

with, with ai.

So I've been doing that for

the last almost year, and

I don't think it needs to

be stated that OpenAI has

crazy product market fit.

Um, there's probably like

three to four companies

right now who are in the

same category as OpenAI

in terms of like powering

the, the AI revolution.

And I think for all of them

it's really the fact that.

They have the core technology

and they've built great

developer experiences

on top of it to actually

distribute that technology

in a seamless way.

OpenAI, Google Philanthropic

are probably like three

companies that have

sort of like that are

basically competing for

this, and I think across.

Any of those providers, right?

Like when it comes to

thinking about LLMs at a

high level, like the ROI

is pretty obvious, right?

Like you can inject these

general purpose machines into

pretty much any workflow, any

situation, and have it take on

more and more of the work that

people would've had to do.

And so you can free

those people up to focus

on things that are more

value additive and more

important for your business.

And in doing so.

Drive more productivity and

that's how you deliver ROI.

Right?

And, and so it's less about

making the case to your buyer

and your user that, Hey, you

need to use these things.

Everyone's like convinced

when Chuck he came out,

Elle: it was the

undeniable shift.

That was when we

abandoned using bots

and now we talk about,

Pranav: yeah, and, and

then if you weren't paying,

if you weren't paying

attention before GBT, you

were definitely paying

attention afterwards.

And so.

Then the question turns into,

okay, where are you actually

finding, um, the most value?

And that's really, I think

what everybody's focused on

right now across the entire

industry is like, we know this

is valuable, but measurably

like, where can we deploy it?

Where can we make it a

part of people's lives?

And, and how can we

actually like, make it

the kind of technology

that people rely on?

Just the way people rely

on, on the internet.

And, and so it's almost

like, you know, back

in the 2000 tens when.

When cloud software was

coming about, like it's

a fundamentally, at least

in the enterprise, it's

like a fundamentally new

platform and a new enabler

of different use cases.

And even back then, like

people are talking about

software as a service and

API infra, these are all like

use cases and markets built

on top of that fundamentally

enabling technology.

And so we have a similar

thing going on with ai.

And so if you look at who

use cases across things like

coding, customer service,

research, healthcare.

So that's what we are

really like trying to

figure out is like within

these domains, what do we

need to do to in Mindshare?

I. To deliver value and

to get customers to build

new businesses on top of

this enabling technology.

And so a lot of marketing

work now is just about,

well, not just, but it's

about, it's about explaining

how to use the technology

in a effective way.

It's primarily education.

'cause you're not that

concerned with convincing

customers to give it a shot.

How do you successful is like

the most important thing,

Elle: right?

Right.

So what I've learned today

so far is that there are

layers to product market fit.

It's not just do

you have it or not.

It's once you have it,

then it's sticking deeper

into various use cases

and those use cases can

expand or you can expand,

I guess into new use cases.

Over time.

Okay, so let me just back up

for a minute 'cause I feel

like we've covered a lot.

And I just wanna quickly

recap big takeaways that

we've covered so far.

So earlier on in our

conversation we talked

about identifying your ideal

customer profile and how

I. That's something that

could change and the world

can change for your ideal

customer profile overnight,

like in the event of a

chat, GTP, like technology

popping up, and we talked

about early signals that you

have product market fit with

repeatable business models,

repeatable sales motions.

We talked about potential

reasons why you don't have.

Product market fit being a

fundamental issue with the

product and how you need to

get all the right stakeholders

in a room and determine, is

this just a quick, like is

it a roadmap fix that we can

fix with low investment or

is it a huge category market

pivot, or do we just need to

start from scratch somewhere?

And then we've talked through

more recently the ROI.

And starting there,

starting with what's

the ROI for your ICP?

What's the, what does total

cost of ownership look

like for the customer?

And working backwards from

there to determine is this

investment for the customer

worth it for them to

continue, even if you may have

existing sales or revenue.

That's something that you

should look at to see if

it's actually feasible for

the customer to be scalable.

That was a lot.

Did I miss anything?

Pranav: No, I

think you're done.

You're spot on.

I think like the overall

takeaway really is like.

It's important to know

where you are as a PMM on

that journey of product

market fit and what you

focus on accordingly.

'cause you can't do everything

you need to do the thing

that moves the needle the

most and what the business

needs and that changes

based on where you are.

Elle: Yeah.

Okay.

So let's quickly turn this

into a playbook for A PMM

who's trying to evaluate or

test their product market fit.

Where do they get started?

Like, what are some steps

that they should take?

Pranav: Yeah, I think the, the

fundamentals that you know,

I think you've covered on

other episodes in your podcast

apply a lot over here as well,

like thinking about your ICP

being super product oriented.

So on one hand,

going really deep.

On your product and

understanding it end to end.

On the other hand,

understanding the ICP and I

think within the ICPA useful

exercise I found is like,

especially for B2B software,

like look at who your users

are and who your buyers are

and see if they're the same

people or different people,

because ultimately that allows

you to decide, add another

dimension to product market

fit, where if you think about

the goal as a repeatable

sales at a high level, then.

You need to be able to both,

you know, have something that

convinces the end users and

gives them value, but also

allows the buyers to say.

This is a good investment

of our dollars because the

people were that, that are

using this are actually

like doing more of what we

want them to do, uh, because

of what we've rolled out.

Right.

So I would say like once

you found, once you found

that out, there's different

product market fit tests,

kind of high level for each

co constituency for users.

It's actually like.

Kind of straightforward,

but maybe hard, hard to

instrument, which is, you

know, and a lot of it is

initially maybe unscalable,

which is like if you took

your product away from

them, like would they be

happy, would they be sad?

Like you want 'em to be

really sad if you took your

product away from them.

So that's like the most

fundamental way to look at it.

And then you can actually

go about figuring out

in different ways.

And then, uh, with buyers

it's more about like, okay,

looking at the deals that

you've closed so far is

the same kind of person.

In the room every single time.

If that's the case, then you

actually have like line of

sight into like a clear budget

and a clear owner that you

can target at different types

of companies with the similar

variety that allow you to

do things more scalably and

get that product market fit,

uh, signal that you need to

know, okay, we have a market

for what we're building.

Um, now we can shift

maybe to more scalable

things like demand gen or.

I know.

Like updating your website.

Elle: Yeah.

The things that you

should have deprioritized.

Yeah.

And modern treasure.

Exactly.

Okay.

So helpful.

Alright, last question

for you on this topic.

What advice do you have for

A PMM who's trying to test

for product market fit?

If you could just leave

them with one thing.

Pranav: Yeah, I would

say your mindset is

like really important.

So the most important

thing for pmms to do is to

kind of have this mindset

of pragmatic optimism.

'cause as pmms we, we

naturally have to like believe

in what we're working on.

I. Because it's our job to

highlight its strengths and

mitigate its weaknesses.

Like that's what

positioning is, right?

Like at the end of the day.

And so for that, you have

to really believe in what

you're working on, but you

can't take it to such a point

that you're blind to its

flaws and it's shortcomings.

'cause then that prevents

you from seeing reality.

And then it prevents you from

knowing how strong you are

the product market fit is.

And so that's probably

like the most important

takeaway is like.

Have a balanced mindset

as much as you can 'cause

that'll allow you to

see things more clearly.

Elle: Right, absolutely.

Someone who is a strong

optimist like myself needs

to remember to take off

the rose colored glasses.

I've literally had to train

myself to do that because

one of my weaknesses is

that I'm overly optimistic.

I think that's what

Pranav: makes good PM.

Elle: Yeah.

No, it's very true though.

You have to be a realist as

well in terms of how you're

evaluating your product.

Alright, very helpful.

So now it's time to

move on to our second

segment of the show.

This is the messaging critique

I. So this is the part where,

um, we as product marketing

experts get to analyze real

world messaging and pranav,

you, my guests, get to pick

the company that we critique.

But first, let me quickly

establish some ground

rules for listeners who

may be new to this segment

or just for you as we

start to unpack this.

So, we're gonna

pick a company or.

You are gonna pick a company

and then we're going to

talk about three things with

this company's messaging.

First, you're gonna tell

me something that you are

loving about the messaging

or something that stood

out with the product,

why you love it so much.

And then the second is,

you're gonna tell me something

that you wish the PMM would

have done differently.

Maybe make the messaging

more clearer or stronger,

or something that could

make it more impactful.

Um, whatever that

stands out to you.

And then finally.

We're gonna do a little bit

of fun brainstorming for

that PMM on where, how they

can iterate the messaging

or take it a step further.

Maybe it's putting together

some creative content or,

um, engage more with their,

with their ICP, you know,

whatever makes sense for that.

Company.

So with that,

let's get into it.

So I know we were chatting

just before this about a

company that you had in mind.

Do you wanna reveal which

company you wanna talk about?

Pranav: Let's

try about Notion.

Elle: So I'm going to

notion.com for anyone

listening in who wants

to check out what we're

talking about here.

Unpack this for us.

Tell us what notion is

and what stood out to you.

Pranav: So, I've been a fan

of Notion for a long time.

They, they've been

around for a while.

They initially, I think,

started as a wiki, but have

now grown into this like,

you know, fully featured,

really powerful workspace

for collaboration across

companies and teams.

They have everything from like

docs to project management to.

Very recently, they've

rolled out like their

own email client.

They have a calendar.

Elle: Does this like compete

with like Google Drive or

like Google Suite or like

is it something different?

I

Pranav: think in some cases it

can be a replacement for, for

Google apps, but I've noticed

a lot of companies use both.

But there are some companies

that are entirely built

on notion, and I think

it's like really popular

with like freelancers and

individuals as well as like

their personal workspace.

And then recently they

launched something that.

I am like starting to use

a lot of, uh, I'm looking

forward to using more of

in the future, which is.

AI meeting notes, um, where it

doesn't join the conversation,

like it won't join this call.

Like, you know, most

note takers do it.

Try it just listens to your,

the output of your computer

or your headphones and

transcribes that in real time.

And as you are taking

notes, it's listening.

And then once you're

done with the meeting.

It actually enhances your

notes and so fills in details.

You may have, may,

may have forgotten.

So I think for me that's gone.

That's like really powerful.

So there, so that's just

to that, just to highlight

about use cases and then

what the product is for folks

who haven't tried it out.

Elle: Yeah.

So would you say just for

like working professionals

or freelancers?

Just generally

speaking, it's, it's a

Pranav: classic like workplace

productivity suite and like

you pointed out an incredibly

crowded market and so I think

messaging and positioning

is like even more important.

Elle: Yeah.

Let's get to it.

What is their messaging,

kind of, if you had to unpack

their tagline or slogan with

a couple messaging pillars,

what do you, what is,

what's popping out for you?

Pranav: So over the last

couple of years, they

really leaned into AI for

a more established company.

I think they've been very

quick to adopt it and roll

out new features and really

embrace the technology.

Um, and so now if you

look at their website.

The tagline is the AI

workspace that works for you.

Um, so really talking

about how they can actually

using the, the latest lms,

infuse them into different

workflows that people already

have to speed those up.

Um, and so I think that part,

like works, works really well.

They talk about how

they're like the,

they're like one place.

Where teams can get answers.

'cause a lot of times in

most companies, finding

the information you

need can be such a pain.

Elle: Oh my gosh,

it's so hard.

Yeah.

I can tell you, working at

a huge company like Cisco,

incredibly difficult.

You only

Pranav: like multiple

SharePoints and like multiple

places to find the info.

And so I think that

promise is really powerful.

And then they have, they have

a line around like automating

the busy work, which.

Which is I think, powerful.

But, but this is maybe

where we can get into a

little bit of the critique.

Like, to me, doesn't

feel as specific as like

the first line, which

is find every answer.

Like that to me is like,

like really visceral

and get projects done.

Again, like getting projects

done by itself is, is not.

Really telling me why

I should use Use Notion

over a more dedicated

project management tool.

You know, like

Asana for example.

So I think overall like

focus on AI and highlighting

different use cases as

you scroll through the

page is really great.

But.

One area where maybe

there could be more detail

or could, could come

across as more compelling

would be around like the

specificity of some of that

language, in my opinion.

And then overall, I mean like,

I think they, they do a great

job highlighting use cases.

So if you scroll down,

I. There's the AI meeting

notes, project management

email, and the fact that

multiple teams can use it.

So I think, uh, and of

course social proof.

So I think that the homepage

does, does a great job overall

in, in communicating the

value you can get from it

while leaving, maybe a few

questions unanswered around,

like, to your point, why is

this super different than

like using Google apps, right?

Like, 'cause that's what

most people default to

these days, or like our

dedicated project management.

Elle: Find every answer really

hits another differentiator.

I also really like their

use of customer and

market proof points.

The way that they've sprinkled

it out with all the use cases

that's super effective, it

builds trust right away.

I

Pranav: think overall they

just have an incredible brand.

Um, their design and

creative has been.

Very distinctive since

the very beginning and

I think that's helped

them consistently.

So I think if you're a PM

working notion, consider

yourself really lucky.

'cause you have like a

fantastic design and brand

team that's like power.

Elle: Absolutely.

Oh wow.

It makes such a

big difference.

It really does.

It makes it easier to have

fun with the storytelling

when you have a brand and

creative that compliments it.

Pranav: And then with AI

meeting notes, the one thing

I would say is having used it

a few times, it only shipped

this week, so they're probably

gonna take make, yeah, it was

like last week or something.

They're probably gonna

make more changes to it.

But the one thing I would

maybe do differently

is the tagline, which

is Perfect Notes every

time To me personally,

like I don't necessarily

want perfect notes.

I want notes that are

complete so I don't miss

out on the important stuff.

And it's not, and when I

read Perfect notes, I think

of like well formatted

notes that are like really,

you know, beautiful and

easily shareable, but.

That's, that's a nice to have.

I think the most important

thing is like notes that

are complete, so you don't

start on what was said.

Elle: Right, exactly.

I need to find every answer.

I keep coming back to that.

I am very excited to

give Notion a try because

truthfully, I have, I've known

about it for a long time, but

I haven't pulled the trigger,

so I'm officially compelled.

This sounds interesting.

Well, well done Notion.

Pmms out there.

You've got some fans.

Great job with your

messaging and also

kudos to the brand team.

Very striking and

playful, creative.

Okay.

So Printoff, before we

go, I just wanna have a

gratitude moment and say

thank you so much for, I

know you're incredibly busy.

Pranav: Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

Elle: Yeah, like, well, you're

like toured your entire career

with us on product market fit.

Uh, so thank you so much.

I learned.

So much, and I'm sure

our audience did too.

And anytime I have an amazing

guest like yourself, I can't

help but think of how do

they get to be so amazing.

So, wanted to give you an

opportunity to give any

shout outs to one or two pmms

who have really shaped your

career in product marketing.

Yeah,

Pranav: for sure.

Um, wow.

So many people have had

social an impact on my

career, uh, from like.

Giving me the opportunity to

break into product marketing,

to enabling me to do the

work that I want to do.

So at Twilio, I actually

moved into product marketing

from Solutions Engineering.

Um, and so at the time

the head of PMM was, was

this guy named Manav.

Uh, Corona.

So he allowed, he gave

me the break into pm m so

obviously shout out to him.

Um, then at Twilio,

the entire pm MM team

was just incredible.

You know, as, as you are

well aware, we were pretty

stacked back in the day.

I still keep in touch with so

many folks from there, but I.

Like, you know, special shout

out to to Vanessa Thompson.

She's just always

been a great mentor.

Even after I left Twilio,

like helped me navigate

career decisions and

serve as references, so

always grateful to her.

And then OpenAI, um, you know,

I work on a team of two pmms

are currently responsible

for the, for the API.

And so my manager LA has been

like really supportive and.

Within a year, like

just the pace of

things has been insane.

And the fact that as

someone that I can work

with very easily and who

trusts me on high impact

and high ambiguity projects

is I. Is I think rare.

Um, and so I'm grateful

for that as well.

Elle: Yeah, I have

continuously come back to

when I have those really

incredible managers or team

members where I feel like we

get so much done and despite

how incredibly stacked

and busy we are, there's

still like a pretty high

level of job satisfaction

and happiness, and it

always comes back to trust.

So, I'm so glad to hear

that that's the environment

that you're in at Open ai.

So, okay.

Well my last question

for you, I promise

this is the last one.

Uh, where else can we

access your expertise?

Is it just best to, for

listeners to connect

with you on LinkedIn if

they wanna chat more?

Yeah, I'm on

Pranav: LinkedIn.

I don't post much,

but I'm there.

Um, I'm also on x, uh,

where I mostly post about.

Developer stuff.

Uh, it's, it's a way

to just keep in touch

with the AI community.

'cause they're super

active on X. So,

Elle: and you have

a blog too, right?

I have a blog

Pranav: that I haven't

updated in two years.

Ah,

Elle: yeah, you've been

a little busy, so, so

Pranav: yeah, if you

wanna take check it

out, definitely do.

But it's very out date.

Elle: Yeah.

There's some good

stuff on there though.

Even if you haven't posted

recently, I'll just say

there's good stuff on there.

Alright.

Thank you so much Pranav

and thank you PMM listeners

for coming on this

adventure with us today.

I hope this episode leaves you

with inspiration to take the

next step in your own journey.

Thank you

Pranav: so much.

Thanks for having me.