Product Marketing Adventures

Elle: I am sure you've

all experienced this.

Change messes with our brains.

Psychologists call

it a threat state.

Our brains crave certainty and

familiarity, so when something

shifts, the Amil amygdala

lights up and we resist.

That's why sales teams

clinging to old pitch decks.

CX dreads the new flow,

and even leadership second

guesses the strategy, and

yet we also crave progress.

Research shows that humans

are motivated by growth

mastery and the possibility

of something better.

That tension, that discomfort

of leaving the unknown and the

pull towards what's possible.

That's exactly where

product marketers live.

Lucky.

Yes.

It's certainly a thrill.

because sometimes in product

marketing, our job isn't

just to tell stories,

it's to lead change.

That's what today's

episode is all about.

I can't wait to walk

through this amazing

story about gold cast.

They pulled off a massive

narrative shift from being

just a webinar tool to

owning the bigger story

as a full video platform.

With me today from Gold

Cast is their senior

Director of product

marketing, an Anand Patel.

Anand is such an

impressive PMM.

Let me tell you why.

He has built the product

marketing front function at

four different companies.

That's an amazing

accomplishment that speaks

both to his versatility and

marketing and leadership.

Over the past five years,

he's launched more than

10 tier one products, each

one driving meaningful

impact in its market.

And here's one I love.

When youth sports came to a

standstill during COVID and

on played a critical role

in helping a youth sports

software company pivot and

thrive proving that great

product marketing isn't just

about launches, it's about

resiliency and creativity.

And it's amazing to

have you on the show.

Anand: Hey Al.

Thanks for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

Elle: Awesome.

Okay, let's dive right in.

We have so many exciting

things to talk about.

so before we jump in, give

us some context and help

us understand like, what

is gold cast For anyone

that doesn't know, keep

us all on the same page.

Anand: Sure.

So Gold Cast Now is a

AI powered video content

platform that helps marketers

basically create, amplify,

and measure video content.

So this is starting with

like having really engaging

webinars, podcasts, or

customer interviews, and then

use using AI to repurpose and

amplify that into a variety of

different content that you can

use across a bunch of channels

to essentially reach out and,

and engage with your audience.

Elle: I think this is

such an exciting market

to play in right now.

Um, I'm feeling like video

is popping up more and

more as like the go-to

tool for engagement.

So super helpful context.

and for this episode, the

focus of today is managing

stakeholders through

a narrative shift and

being that change agent.

So we're gonna start with

a case study for the first

segment of this show.

Take us back to when

Gold Cast was making

that transition from.

Webinars and events to

a true video platform.

What was happening

behind the scenes?

Anand: Yeah, so I got there

in about June, 2023, and

so for anyone that doesn't

know, gold Cast was born

in probably like May, 2020.

And so for the first three

years or so, they have

done a really good job

building like a presence

and a name for themselves

in the webinar space.

Um, and then shortly after

I got there, we had launched

a new product called Content

Lab, which was all around

repurposing and using AI

to take long form video

content IE webinars and

turn them into more assets

and videos that you can use

across different channels,

as I mentioned earlier.

And so this was like

a new play for us.

Shortly after that, launching

that, we made it into a

standalone product and we

saw a lot of early traction

and positive sentiment.

Like this was something people

were excited about and it gave

vindication to our founders.

That we needed to move, expand

from just being a webinar tool

into a larger like video media

play, which had always been

in the back of their mind.

So that, that's kind of

like the, the context

of what was happening.

Um, and I'm happy to kind

of walk through some of

the other things that I,

I, I went through if you

want me to do that as well.

Elle: Yeah.

Yeah.

Sounds good.

So as you kind of saw this

early indication, or your

founder saw this early

indication that this is

a place where we needed

to be, then enter you as

being, the PMM lead on.

This new initiative, what

was kind of your task at

hand and how did you, how

did you first start to

realize like, okay, this is

something I need to focus on?

Anand: Yeah, so ultimately

like the main thing, the

founders had a very good

sense that we needed to

reposition our company, right?

Like.

We no longer wanted to have

sales calls where people

came to the calls and be

like, Hey, we are looking

for a webinar tool like that.

That's still a huge use

case that we serve and

continue to serve, but

we wanted to be known as

something bigger than that.

And so I was lucky enough

where the founders, our

CEO, gave me the trust to

take on and lead this key

initiatives with them,

obviously in support.

And so what happened

was really four things.

One.

It was trying to make a

shift in the way that we cat,

like the, the category that

we position ourselves in.

We're no longer gonna

be a events or a a,

a virtual events or a

webinar, uh, category.

We wanna be something a

little bit larger than that.

with that we had to formally

kind of update our overall

strategic narrative to

play a role in that story

that we wanted to tell.

And then from that

came the ideas of like.

Restructuring pricing

to make sure it aligned

with our vision.

And then the, probably

the most important thing

is to create internal

alignment, right?

To make sure everyone is

consistently telling that

story, especially the go

to market teams, but just

everyone in general within the

organization needed to be on

the same page and telling that

same story out to the market.

Elle: Right.

Totally.

And so as you were, building

the story and doing all that

en enablement and managing all

those stakeholders, kind of

give the reveal what happened

at the end of the story.

You know, how, what, what

was the end result or, maybe

you're still kind of working

on that end result, but,

what's some early indication

of success that you saw?

Anand: Yeah.

So in terms of like what

happened next, once I knew

kind of what we needed to do,

obviously I worked closely

with the founders to pull

out information from them

of like, what's the story

they believe in, what's the

vision that they believe in?

And that was like the

foundations of everything.

And then I started running

two, kind of like cus parallel

customer interview, customer

discovery, uh, projects.

One was around like what

video meant to our customer,

because we weren't sure.

It was like, does webinar

and video go hand in hand?

And we weren't like we,

we weren't sure and that

we were very internally

sold on the idea of video,

but we wanted to make

sure it aligned with our

customers and our audience.

Right?

So, I, I, I, I, I didn't have

a, like a ton, maybe like

seven or eight conversations

I held around that topic.

And honestly, I think half of

them saw it as a relationship.

Some of 'em did not see video

and webinar as a, as a thing

that goes together, but half

of those 50% were able to like

connect the dots if we just

talked a little bit about it.

Right?

So it wasn't like a

complete a hundred percent

vindication that video

is the right choice.

But I think we had enough

kind of gut feel internally

and, and enough kind of small

signals from the customer

conversations that we can

move forward with that.

And then the second kind of

parallel track was talking to

about 15, 20 folks with one of

my founders and, and myself.

To see if the, the narrative

that we had around like

Mindshare, Mindshare marketing

really resonated and we

could tell from off the bat

that really did resonate.

So that was, that

was positive.

And then from there,

that's where we started

building out collateral,

making sure everyone in

the team was enabled, and

then update messaging,

messaging everywhere.

And so, like, to your point,

it was not like, Hey, it

took a week and we're done.

Right?

Like, we are still

working on this right now.

Like, um, we continue to

iterate on our, on our story.

We're still making sure

that everyone internally is

still telling that story.

I would say the initial

few months of trying to

get, especially the go-to

market teams to change

that story was a struggle.

Like they were like, like they

had things that were working.

They liked their talk tracks,

they liked their process,

and we were like completely

shifting and, and like erupt,

like disrupting that, right?

So that was difficult to do,

but we've gotten there and

we continue to work on that.

But we've seen like

improvements in our A

CV as we've shifted from

just being a webinar

tool to a more end-to-end

video content platform.

We've seen like

organically on.

On LinkedIn and other places

where people have started

talking, like mind share

and, and being top of mind

and how important that is.

And I, I wouldn't say that's

all because of us, but it's

important that that story is

being told out in the market.

Um, again, when you

are shifting categories

and shift, try to tell

a strategic narrative.

It, it takes a long time.

It's an ever going

thing, right?

And so we're continuing

to work at it, but we've

seen signals that it has,

we've definitely made a

lot of progress over the

last year, year and a half.

Elle: Yeah, and it could be so

easy to want to give up when

you don't see the immediate

results, but it sounds like

you had some signals along

the way that showed you that

you were on the right track.

Right.

Like earlier on you mentioned

that you had the conversations

with customers and and a lot

of your vision was resonating.

And then, and then

even later, after.

Launching and going to market.

You saw that the

increase in, in a CV.

So that's all such good

stuff and I wanna get into

it a little deeper in terms

of what an actual playbook

for you looked like.

So, let's think about this

from this perspective.

Let's say that I'm a

PMM who's, leading a big

narrative shift, something

totally different, whether

it's shifting markets or

shifting to a platform

message or whatever it may be.

I've got all these

stakeholders that I need

to manage, um, and I have

to be that change agent.

So kind of give us a quick

summary of like what your

playbook looks like, maybe

from start to finish.

Anand: Yeah, I mean, I

think first and foremost

it's all about, alignment

or just trust and belief

from, whether it's the

founders, if you're a small

organization or if you're a

large organization like key

leaders and stakeholders.

Like if they do not believe

in the need to make this

kind of shift and switch,

it doesn't matter how much

effort, how great the story

is, how great the category

is, it won't matter, right?

So I've been at

organizations where.

I've proposed a shift in like

how we position ourselves

and the story that we tell.

And everyone loves it.

They're all on board, but

they're not willing to

put in the extra effort

to bring it to life, both

internally and championing

internally with the rest of

the company, but as well,

as well as externally.

Right?

And so like, It

was the best story.

It was a great story.

Everyone loved it, but it just

didn't go anywhere, right?

So it all starts with getting.

Founder, CEO, key

leadership buy-in.

And by buyin it doesn't mean

like how they bought into,

like us doing the project,

it means they're bought in

to live and breathe this

change.

Right.

And the participating

and the advocating for it

internally and externally.

So that was definitely

like a big thing.

And then it's really about

seeing like, how do we

like try to shift from one

thing to a complete 180

to a whole different thing

is it's a lot of effort.

Like I, I, I wouldn't

recommend that.

Right.

So like, it's

about how do you.

How do you bridge the gaps

to where you want to go?

Hopefully the, it's, you

know, built off the vision

and the vision is not a

completely one eight com

complete 180 of what you are.

Right?

So for us it was from webinars

to video, and there was a

ladder, there was a bridge

that we could make, right?

And so it's about how do we

make sure that we are telling

that story and extending that

story a little bit, versus

completely changing it.

And then it's like, you

know, make sure that you're,

you're running, Research and

custom conversations, make

sure it resonates, it lands,

and then, then it all goes

into the enablement piece.

And having a strong drumbeat

of continuing to tell this

story, especially internally,

like it's easy for us to do,

like spend three weeks on

enablement with the sales

team, give them a new deck and

do certifications, and then

a month later they're back

using the old stuff again.

Right.

And so how do you continue

to have repetition?

Elle: right, exactly.

Because as we've learned

through psychological

research, change is scary

and it's frustrating and it's

something we have to work on

in order to see that progress.

And you've, you've said it

with how long that it's take,

that it has taken, and you're

still working on it and you're

seeing some progress, but It

just takes time and effort.

so now what I wanna do is.

take your playbook and

let's break it down

and focus on each.

I dunno step, if you

will, and maybe they're

not happening necessarily

in chronological order.

Some things are probably

happening in parallel,

so totally get that.

But starting with the

first step, right?

You talked about getting

founders or the C-Suite

on board, that executive

sponsorship, when you

had to do that with

Gold cast, what did that

look like in practice?

Anand: Yeah.

So in terms of getting them

on board, and kinda aligned,

I, it was a, it was a positive

situation where it wasn't me

going to them saying, Hey,

we need to make this switch.

It was them saying, we are

seeing signals right from

the launch of this new

content lab thing where.

We need to adjust how we

think of our, uh, how the

market thinks of us, right?

They had already from the

beginning, had this idea of

like media platform in the

back of their minds, right?

We, they just hadn't

brought it to life yet.

And it was probably a

longer term vision and I

think it got accelerated.

I think I, I know it

got accelerated based on

that launch and seeing

how much people like

really resonated with it.

and so like the exec executive

sponsorship was there 'cause

they believed in the switch.

Then it all became

about like keeping them.

always on the

con conversation.

It wasn't like, Hey, we

had one conversation, then

we went away, and then

I came back with stuff.

It's keeping them involved

throughout the whole

thing, I had multiple

conversations to understand

like what their vision

was, what's the story

that we're telling.

Um, I'm fortunate enough where

our founders and gold cast

is, it's about 150 people,

so not like a huge company.

Right.

But we're, we're scaling,

but like our founders are

very, have a very good,

strong pulse on what's

happening in the market.

They have a lot of

conversations with VPs

and marketing CMOs and

customers and so like.

Understanding what they're

seeing, and I was able to

have multiple conversations.

It wasn't just one, it was

weeks of just having that

continuous conversation,

coming back with a story

or a position, potential

like category, getting

their thoughts and feedback

on it, iterating on it.

So it, it took a few weeks

to finally get to a place

where they felt comfortable

and they feel confident

in what kind of the, the

package product was there.

Elle: Yeah.

So, that is very lucky to

have, by the way, to, come

into a situation where the CEO

or the founders or the C-Suite

is initiating the change or.

You know, you're starting

off with them being on

board with the change.

so let's say, you know,

I've got my CEO on board,

or Yes, they've, maybe they

initiated the, idea and now I

need to move on to step two.

I know you talked about,

making, I dunno if it was like

making a plan, but it was like

looking at where you wanna

go and where you are today.

So it sounds like kind of

like a benchmark maybe.

So tell us more about what

that step is all about.

Anand: Yeah.

For, for there, it's like,

again, there was this whole

idea of media platform, right?

And we ended up not

going that direction.

maybe that is somewhere we

end up five years from now.

Right.

But we knew that wasn't

the next stepping stone

as an organization.

Well, it was the next stepping

stone is the fact that we were

able to create all these v um,

like derivative video content

from long form, um, initially

from webinars, but now from

other long form video as well.

And so that's why we felt

video was the right next step.

It was the next stepping

stone to potential what

this larger vision is gonna

be five years from now.

And for us it was really.

It was about making sure

that we weren't alienating

our existing like market

and customer base, um,

who had known and come to

know us for being around

webinars and virtual events.

So if we saw it went hard to

the market with like video,

video, video content, right?

Like would that alienate what

people thought of gold cast?

And so that's why I mentioned

earlier, we ran all these

conversations to see like

this video and webinars

are people able to connect

the dots And we felt enough

confidence that they could.

Um, but we also decided

like if we truly wanted to

make a shift in who, how

people thought of us, we

would have to kind of shake

the boat a little bit.

Right?

Like when you come to our

website, we talk about

video content and video.

We don't talk about webinars

as like we do, but not,

that's not upfront and center.

Right.

And

Elle: right.

It's a use case, but it's

Anand: Yeah.

Correct.

It's a use case, so it may

feel uncomfortable, especially

it feels uncomfortable

for the sales team and

other folks who are like

their main thing they're

selling is still webinars.

People that come to

our door still, they're

like, oh, we need to, we

need a new webinar tool.

Right?

And so like, but we are

pitching them a video content

platform so it, it's like, you

know what people are coming

from what we are pitching

can, it's sometimes a little

off, but then once you like

start telling the story,

you can connect the dots.

And so like that was really

the extension that we had

to make and help people

feel comfortable with

making that extension.

Elle: Right.

It's not like you're starting

out with, Hey, I know you

came to us for a webinar

platform conversation.

Now I wanna talk to

you about, you know,

retail point of sale.

Like, it's not

some completely,

Anand: Yeah.

Elle: you know, far off thing.

Right?

Okay.

Okay.

So here you are.

You've got the CEO or

whatever C-Suite on board.

You, uh, as an active

participant, you've.

Found, you've confirmed and

validated that like, okay,

people can connect the dots.

This isn't a crazy, it's

a natural shift, right?

From where we're

where we wanna go.

So what's step three?

What do you do next?

Anand: I mean, so we've, we've

done the validation, right?

And, and the, the main thing

is, like I said, we talked

to multiple customers.

I think then it's like trying

to bring that to life, and

ultimately what that means is

the main kind of true north

of this is like everyone is

singing the same song, right?

Everyone's traveling

in the same direction.

I've been in organizations

where it felt like everyone.

Was traveling, but traveling

in different directions.

Right?

And so like, that doesn't

really get you to a

destination, it just gets

everyone somewhere, right?

Um, and so that was

like the main thing.

And so like we had to

figure out like what our

enablement plan was there,

and more importantly,

about just enabling people.

It was getting the company

on board with this shift.

Like I said, it, it was.

Uh, and you know, the reason

you and I kind of connected

is because I had this LinkedIn

post about how this was one

of my most favorite launches

because it caused a lot of

like, friction internally.

Right.

Um, and that's what it was,

is like, again, when people

are used to certain ways

of doing things, if they're

comfortable in the talk tracks

and the processes and like

the, the differentiators

that they talk about, if,

and we are throwing like a.

A landmine in that's shifting

how they all, how they do

it, it takes a lot of like

effort to like build trust.

Like, hey, let's, we need

to do this, let's do this.

And so it was ongoing

conversations with the

sales team, getting

their feedback on things.

I would, um, tap in our,

our founders or our CEO and

be like, Hey, I need you

to come to this meeting.

And you tell 'em your point

of view on this versus me

trying to enable them on

this because it's different

coming from our CEO versus me.

You know, this, this product

marketer who just joined the

company three months ago, et

Elle: Right.

Yeah, absolutely.

I can totally imagine that

being really challenging.

I could, you know, for me, I

have a framework that I use to

be able to produce my podcast

at a high quality, and if

someone came in here and said,

we're changing that, we're

doing a big shift, you're no

longer doing this framework

that you know you can do by

at the back of your hand Now.

You do this new thing, then I

have to learn something new.

It's effort, as

you pointed out.

Um, so it takes, you know,

trust and conversations

and progress and working

in order to, to get there.

so I wanna hear a little

bit more about, and you

kind of, you started

to mention it, right?

Like this enablement plan and.

And how you maybe used or

leveraged your, um, state,

your executive sponsor,

whether that's, you know,

the founder C-suite or

some super senior person.

How did you leverage

their voice?

And you, you mentioned already

like bringing them in on some

sales team conversations.

Like is there anything

else that you did and did

you do those more like ad

hoc or was it kind of like

very strategic, like part

of your enablement plan?

Anand: It, it was

a bit of both.

So there were times where

like we had a company kickoff

and that was strategically

and intentional, like

we were gonna have our

CEO and our founder.

Talk through, this

is our new narrative.

This is how we're gonna

position ourselves.

Here's kind of our

vision as a company.

And like, so that was

purposeful, right?

Like to the whole company.

This is how we're going to

do things moving forward.

And it came from

the top right.

Um, and then we broke off

from that where we had

individual sessions, but

even that, like leading up

to that company kickoff,

I had separate sessions

with each functional team.

So it wasn't like the

first time they heard

it was from the CEO.

The, the, the conversation

that came from the CEO at the,

um, kickoff was more just,

more validation that yes,

this is actually important.

Like, you know, AP came

and talked to us about it

and I had a conversations

I'd ask them, like what

they need to help bring

this to life in their team,

and then the workflows.

But now they got validation

a few weeks later from

our CEO that this is a

priority, this is important.

It's coming from him.

Right.

So that was like a

strategic decision.

And then there were times

where like, especially with

like go to market teams where

like, hey, we, we are pitching

and showing off this new

sales deck, and there's some

concerns about like how much

we're talking about mindshare

and video and not going

straight to the point of like

why our webinar solution is

better and things like that.

Right.

And so for those

conversations, you know, I,

I would take the feedback,

I would understand where

their concerns were, and then

I'd go back to our founders

and say, Hey look, here's

where the concerns are.

I think it's important for you

one, or you or both of you,

to come to the next meeting

and share your opinions and

share what your perspective

and your responses to that.

Because again, the, it's

important for them, the go

to market teams, full trust

from the founders that they

hear this feedback, they hear

this concern, but this is why

we're going in this direction

and this is why it's important

that we all tell this story.

Elle: Yeah, so I've had

experience where, and

I, I saw this at Twilio.

I saw it at Cisco, where

I've had sales salespeople

come back to me with

feedback about, you know,

a sales deck, for example.

And they say, this

is too much vision.

Uh,

my customers just wanna hear

what our product can do and

why, why they should buy it,

with the benefits are and why

it's, better than anyone else.

And I get that feedback

of too much vision.

I don't want any of that.

It sounds like maybe you

saw that sometimes, and I'm

curious, like was is your

go-to, like what do you do?

Like, do you still keep

that vision part in there?

It sounds like you did and.

you just got the basically

your executive sponsor

to be like, sorry,

we're keeping it in.

Anand: Yeah,

Yeah, this is not a uncommon,

like I've, I've felt this in

multiple places that I've gone

and we've tried to make this

whole like, narrative thing,

like really catch on, right?

Um, if you look at like Andy

Raskin or in some of those

other kind of folks who talk

about narrative, like there's

like, there's like five

to eight to nine slides

that they suggest you

have in your deck, right?

That's a lot of slides

for a sales rep or

anyone on the CX site to

even go through, right?

And so in terms of like,

how do I, how do we

kind of approach this

once we got, especially

once we got feedback.

I think one thing

was to figure out are

there ways to skim down

the number of slides?

Because I think it's

not even the story.

'cause there could be 10

slides and I could, I, I

would record a loom of me

doing that story and it

would take me a few minutes.

Right?

But it was the sheer volume

of like, Hey, I have 10 slides

I have to get to through

before I could even get

to like the product stuff.

Right?

So that, that seems daunting.

And so we look for

opportunities where we

can cut down the number of

slides, maybe like combine

things or take the talk

track for one and still

have it still sit on top of

another slide.

And then I, I worked with

like our, our sales leader

as well as our founders,

to figure out like out of

these whatever slide number

or slides there are, which

ones are like pivotal,

which ones have to be like,

addressed in the conversation.

And so like, we gave

people options, like they

could skip things, right?

But they, they were

certain things they had

to bring up and mentioned.

It didn't have to be them

showing the slide it, but they

had to voice it over, right?

They had to tell that

and connect that story.

Um, so yeah, that's kind of

how we, how we approached it.

Ultimately, to your point,

at the end of the day, the

founder, the CEOs, they,

they came in and said, look,

this change is important for

us as we grow our business.

Like we, if we are just seen

as a webinar tool for the

next five years, it's not

gonna support the growth

that we want as a company.

We have to do this.

Right.

So as much as like this

back and forth, or is

this the right decision?

It, it was a decision

from the top down.

Like, this is important for

the company and we have to

all, uh, play a role in that.

Elle: right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I love being able to use that

executive sponsor when needed.

Like sometimes you just

need bring in the big guns.

Anand: Correct.

Elle: other ways that I

personally have overcome that

is we, I had this one like

really incredible salesperson

at Twilio and together

we came together and we.

We talked through like, okay,

how could we take this big

story vision and make it

more of like a conversation

with a customer and less

of like me talking at you

and telling you the vision?

And I feel like it worked

really well, but it

wasn't easily trainable.

You know, like

only really good.

Really seasoned experience

reps could pull that off.

But some of the more

junior reps, I think,

like, had a harder time.

So, you know, it's ha, it's

tough, it's tough to like try

to get that into a sales deck.

The, the, the vision

part, you know?

Anand: Correct.

E even for us, like I, I

fall at the typical advice

of like, Hey, pick out one

or two salespeople to run

this with first just to get

validation and proof points.

I, one or two respected

sales folks that have, you

know, have done well in

their time at Gold Cast.

I did that they enjoyed, like,

they thought it resonated,

but like it was still hard

to bring, like build like in

overall like, uh, consensus.

Like this is the right,

you know, direction to go.

Um, even in the deck itself,

like I pinpointed, I had

like this kind of, um,

companion deck that would

show each slide it would

talk about, here's some

discovery questions to ask.

Here's some things like,

is funny 'cause in the

conversations that we had

with customers around the

narrative, we had talked to a

CMO who, who brought this up.

So I, and she sent me her

companion deck that she's

used in the past, and

so I stole it from her.

So I appreciate it.

Appreciate that.

Her name was Deb Wolf,

so, um, shout out to

her.

But, yeah, that was like

something I created, but

to your point of like

conversation, I made

sure like we had like.

Not on every slide, but like

on key slides, like, here's,

here's a great trigger

for a conversation that

can open up more learning

and having back and forth.

but again, it's like

a big change and a

big shift to make.

So even if you have that

conversational aspects to

it, like it does take a lot

of repetition for someone

to really start building

that into their workflow.

Elle: yeah, Yeah.

What a great tip.

Pmms.

Take note.

Anand: Yeah.

Elle: Okay, so you

got this like massive

enablement process that

I'm sure took forever.

Once you, I'm, you're

probably still working on

it, but once you feel like

you have a strong handle

on the enablement piece.

What's the last step

of your playbook?

Anand: so now you

have the enablement.

Now it's like, obviously

like your internal teams

and your go to market teams

are hopefully telling that

same story or at least.

Some version of that

story that you continue

to work with them on.

Now it's also about just

making sure you're covering

all the other channels

too, as an organization.

Right?

So that really comes

down to the marketing

team for the most part.

Um, are we telling the right

story and the right are we

clearly articulating our

position on our website,

on review sites, on our

own social channels?

And so just making sure that

we have alignment across that.

Even from a product marketing

perspective, like I make sure

as a team that we, we don't do

a hundred percent perfectly,

but every release that we

have, is there an opportunity

to tie that story into that

small, even if it's a tier

three, like small release,

it's just a small release

note that goes somewhere

on the website, right?

Like, how do we make sure

we bake in that story?

So we continuously have a

drumbeat of what we're saying.

Um.

From a content perspective,

a content team took this full

messaging framework document I

had, and like they're building

that story around Mindshare

marketing and video content

and other topics are relevant.

We have, um, like a thought

leadership program going where

our CMO and our founders are

joining podcasts and doing

speaking sessions to continue

to kind of have a drumbeat

in that voice in the market.

So it was, it came, became

more of the, the market

voice that we had to start

building out as well.

Elle: Yeah.

Yeah.

So you're kind of

leading into what my next

question was gonna be is.

How did this look like from

the customer's perspective?

It sounds like you activated

a number of channels, and you

talked about, you know, it

sounds like media pitching

and, all that sort of things.

Are there any, like pieces

of content or like, I guess

like the messaging that

really stood out for you in

terms of how this may have

looked like for a customer

and what you feel like was

a really strong success with

getting this new narrative

in front of the customer?

Anand: I wouldn't say it

was a success right away.

It took a little bit of

effort to figure out what

the right approach was

with existing customers.

we were at May Con last

year, which is a large like,

marketing AI conference

and that's actually

where we had been talk,

talking about video a lot.

And a lot of people thought

of video in different ways,

like motion graphics, and

that's where we edit, added

the content word to it.

So video content to make

it more re uh, you know,

relative to what we were

specifically supporting with.

But it was at that event

where, um, I came to realize

like we had been championing

this whole content lab

and content repurposing

and video repurposing

this thing so much, and

we still had customers who

had no idea that that thing

was available to them.

Right.

And so like, it's, it's

like the product marketing

dilemma of like, no matter

how much you shout from

the rooftops, like people

still will not hear, right.

Still fall on deaf ears.

so what ended up working

well so far, and I,

I wouldn't say it's.

Perfect yet, right?

But what's worked so

well so far is one.

We've tried to build a better

kind of like relationship

with CS so that they help

champion a lot of this

stuff when they're having

customer conversations.

Right.

and a big resource that has

played a role in that is that

we've started building out

these things called playbooks.

So if you go to, um.

Our website, we have a whole

section around playbooks

where it's partially customer

stories and partially our

own internal stories of how

we're using our own platform

for different things.

So like we're doing,

we're doing recording a

customer interview, and then

we're taking that customer

interview and creating a clip

and using our gen editor to

make it like really engaging.

And then we put that into an

ad and like it's a full like

three, four step

kind of playbook.

it's been great.

And the CS team like loves it.

They're, they're using that

in their conversations.

And so maybe it's, it's not

as like a broad thing, like

we do put it on social and

stuff like that, but it's even

in one-on-one conversations.

It's allowing the CS team

to have a more effective

way of talking about

how you can expand your

usage of our platform.

Elle: I love that.

Yeah.

And a really great way to

help customers get started

with, I guess just diving

deep into your new narrative

and your new offerings.

So I love that.

That's great.

Okay, so I wanna summarize

what I think I've heard today.

For what?

Your playbook not, not

to confuse with the

playbook you're giving your

customers, the playbook

we're giving to pmms.

what you did, I think.

to pursue this big

narrative shift, you've got

executive sponsorship or

maybe it's their priority

that they've given you.

you've got this, I, what it

sounds like establishing a

point of view on where you

are now and where you wanna

be and how you're gonna

get to where you wanna be,

um, making sure that that.

It's an easy shift, right?

Not like a 180.

You validated that

with customers.

and then you did the big

enablement push with the

sales team and maybe the

rest of the company too.

And then you had that drumbeat

that where you partnered

with the marketing team

and you made sure that this

story got out into all the

channels and all the places.

does that capture everything?

Let me know if I

missed anything.

Anand: No, that, that's

a good summary of like

the steps it takes.

Obviously there's a lot

of nuances to it for every

organization, but like those

are generally like the, the

process that we followed

to get to this point.

It's still a

working in progress.

Right.

But like we, we've definitely

made it, made a lot of,

um, movement and we've come

a long way from where it

was just a few years ago.

Elle: Yeah.

Okay.

So now I'm really curious,

if you were to do this

again from the start,

how would you use ai?

Or maybe you did use ai, but

what part of AI would you

leverage to, accelerate or

increase the efficiency of all

the product marketing aspects

of this entire initiative?

Or would you not

use it at all?

And why?

Anand: Yeah, I, I would

definitely use that.

I don't remember if I used it

too much when we were doing

this about, you know, a year

and a half, two years ago.

I'd probably use it a little

bit, but like some areas where

I could definitely see it

being valuable is synthesizing

a lot of the conversations.

So the founder conversations,

trying to take all those,

again, it wasn't just

one conversation, it was

multiple conversations.

So I could take transcripts

and try to pull out the key

nuggets in terms of like,

what matters to them, what's

the vision, the customer

conversations I was having,

or the key themes or, or like,

Hey, I talked to eight people

about the, the idea of video.

What were some of

their concerns?

What, where were some of the

kinda lack of, uh, clarity

and what video means to them?

Like, it, it would've

been a good way to just

like, summarize and take

all those nuggets away.

Um.

And then I think after that

point, I'm, I'm sure there's

a way you can leverage AI

to help build out like the

narrative and stuff like that.

I think you could, yeah, you

could definitely use it to

support, but also you have

to just be very careful.

Like it has to basically as

authentic to the way that

you wanna speak as a company.

What's, what's important to

the, to the, to the founders

and the executives themselves?

the other thing, like, I

would probably, I don't know

how I would do this, but

I think it would be very

important and very effective,

is to have, like whether

there's a custom GPT or

whatever tool you're using.

A kind of like a hub where the

go to market or internal teams

can go to ask questions around

this narrative and it could

help, kind of enable them.

Right.

Um, and so I think that would

be, I could still do that.

Right?

It's still, it could still be

a very, uh, useful even now.

So I think that could be a,

a very fun way to leverage AI

to help with enablement piece

Elle: I. I'm actually

seeing that a lot.

Like in some of these

conversations that I've had

with product marketers, I'm

seeing like, it's like a

go-to-market engineer sort

of who like builds these,

or sometimes PMM can do it

too, but like, we'll build

these custom GPTs, like for

enablement or, you know,

build out an agent, agent

Anand: Yeah.

Elle: With quotes.

Um,

Anand: Yeah.

I, I built one.

I built one recently.

Um.

Where our CS team can tap

into it, and it pulls all

the playbooks, customer

quotes, case studies.

And so if like, Hey, we have

this customer who needs to,

who wants to do a little bit

more of this, can you help me?

And it'll pull all the right

content for it, for the CS

to use with that customer.

So like there's so many great,

so many great ways to use ai,

it's just to, it's probably

an endless way of using it.

So just trying to figure out

where do you have the most

gaps that you want to help,

Elle: I know.

I love that.

Yeah, likewise.

Okay, so, um, before we move

on to the next segment of

a show, I have to ask if,

uh, like if you were to give

PAPM M1 piece of advice,

who's embarking on this,

like big narrative shift

and stakeholder management?

Initiative, what's like one,

and you know, maybe they're

nervous about the pushback.

Like what's one piece of

advice that you would give?

Anand: Um, I might cheat and

give two, two pieces of advice

here.

One is just like, if, if,

if, if it doesn't feel like.

The leadership team is

kind of demanding this

and pushing for it.

Be skeptical about

how much effort you're

gonna put into it.

'cause again, I've, I've

gone through this process,

done a lot of effort.

Everyone loves the

output, but then nothing

happens with it, right?

And so it just becomes wasted

effort, which is unfortunate.

Um, but if you are doing

it correctly and if the

leadership team is like

really prioritizing this

and pushing this, it is

gonna be a bumpy ride.

Like I mentioned, there are

uncomfortable conversations.

Everyone has concerns.

Change management is

a very difficult thing

for people to deal with.

So just like have empathy, um.

Take the feedback.

Like there were times where

like I got feedback from CX or

sales and like, you know, they

were not for something and

kind of stings a little bit.

'cause you put so much effort

in the work and you're like,

ah, they, they don't know

what they're talking about.

But if you like,

take a step back.

You realize like they're

coming from a place

where they are talking to

prospects, they're talking to

customers on the day to day.

Like they have a very, very

important view into this.

Right?

And so, like, it allowed

me to like rethink things.

Um, and it doesn't mean that

I take every, every piece

of feedback for and and, and

operationalize it, right?

But there are things that can

really help you do better.

And sometimes you just have

to put your ego aside and

be like, you know what?

That, that's a

very good point.

I'm gonna make an

adjustment here.

Elle: Yeah, I think that's

really smart piece of feedback

because when you think about

it, as much time and effort as

we, as product marketers spend

creating the narrative for

us, we're not like speaking

it every single day until

the narrative changes, which

could be years and those

salespeople every single day.

Anand: Mm-hmm.

Elle: So I, um, yeah, I agree.

Definitely want to.

Bring those guys along for the

ride and make 'em feel like

their feedback is valuable.

okay.

Thank you so much, Anand,

for walking us through

that incredible case study.

Um, now I would like to yeah.

Move on to the next

segment of our show.

It is the messaging critique.

So this is where we as product

marketing experts get to

analyze real world messaging.

Um, but you, as the

guest of my show, get

to pick the company.

So before we get started,

I wanna share the ground

rules for everyone who

may be new to this.

So, uh, first you're

gonna tell me, um, you

obviously tell us what

the company is and.

Who their target audience is

and what they do and all that.

you're gonna tell us

something that you're loving

about the messaging, like

what's working, what's

resonating, um, and why.

And then you're gonna

tell us something that

you wish the PMM would've

considered when they were

building the messaging, um,

or bringing it to market.

And then finally.

Um, we're gonna do a fun

brainstorm and iterate a

little bit and give that

PMM some ideas on what they

can do with the messaging,

maybe some creative content

or campaign or something.

yeah.

So without further ado,

what is the company we

are critiquing today?

Anand: I wanted to go,

uh, I've been, I'm in

B2B, so I wanted to go

kind of opposite of that.

So I picked a B2C company,

which is remarkable.

Uh, a product that I

use and I enjoy using.

So I, I figured, let's

go with remarkable.

Elle: I love it.

Okay, so for anyone

following me on, uh, we're

looking@remarkable.com.

So tell us what do they do?

Who are they?

Anand: So they are a

digital kind of notebook.

the reason why I use them is

when I used to take notes,

I used to have like five

different notebooks I'd go

through every, you know, a

couple of months and it was

getting too much to handle.

And so.

This is a digital version

of having a notebook.

And so it just made

things a lot easier

and cleaner to manage.

I don't know exactly who they,

you know, market to, to me

it feels like it's probably

like working professionals,

probably more tech forward,

working professionals

looking at their website.

It feels like very, like techy

type of people by the way the

visuals are and the way that

they're dressed, et cetera.

But, um, yeah, I would

say like working,

working professionals

and tech forward,

working professionals.

Elle: Got it.

Okay.

And now walk us through

their messaging.

What are you seeing, you

know, I guess above the

fold on their website

that's popping out at you?

Anand: Yeah.

So for me this was

interesting 'cause again,

coming in the B2B world,

we always talk about like

the high level value.

But you see in B2C where

they're like, they're usually

kinda sometimes like you see

with Apple highlight like the

recent innovation or recent

product that they launch,

which it seems like this

is what Remarkable is doing

with their pro move product.

Um.

The messaging felt

kind of weird to me.

Like be there with like,

the big thing that stands

out, which, you know, if you

don't really have too much,

uh, context on remarkable,

it may not make a lot of

sense, but like, once you

see the image and stuff, you

realize it's like a, a more

portable notebook that you

can take places with you.

Um, which for me as a buyer

probably isn't as relevant.

I, I work from home.

I sit in my desk almost

every day, right?

So, like, this product

specifically is not relevant

for me, but obviously

that's something that's.

The new thing that

they're pushing.

Elle: It does.

I am getting very, um,

apple inspired vibes,

Anand: Yeah.

Elle: Not necessarily

from, obviously Apple's

very like sleek.

They have a very

distinct aesthetic.

Not, not from that

perspective, but

exactly to your point.

Like the, um, just

the way that they are.

it looks like advertising

the new product.

They have a watch the event.

Anand: Yeah.

But, but even that, I, I,

that even, like at first,

like, I mean I wor I, I work

for Gold Cast, which does

a lot of virtual events and

we, cus like, so I, I kind of

got what they meant by that.

But like there was nothing

around that at context.

So there was a

launch event that

they announced this thing in.

Right.

So that was a bit

confusing to me at first.

Elle: That's exactly

what I was gonna say.

I was frankly confused when I

first pulled up their website.

I'm like, okay,

something about notes.

But like, it was, it just,

it kind of like, I didn't

really, like, I thought it

was an app, to be honest.

Like, I'm like, uh, I

didn't realize until like

I'd continued to scroll.

I'm like, oh, it's

like an actual

Anand: Yeah.

and and this is like

what, what, what's interesting

there is like, I have a

remarkable, so my context

is different coming to this

page, right?

Versus yours, right?

So like, um, like I know

what they do generally.

So I knew, okay, this is

a different version, a

different model of a digital

dope notebook, but you

had less context, so you

took it as an app, right?

Elle: I, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So what are you loving

about their messaging?

What's working?

Anand: Um, so a couple

things that I do do, like,

like it's probably less

messaging, more visuals.

Like if you scroll down a

little bit after the, after

the hero, like they have

really great, like, visuals

of the product, right?

Like people would have

their notes written down.

And so, like, to me, this is

just like, makes it more real.

Like this is what you do

with this product, right?

Kind of thing.

Um, and as again, maybe the

context is different, but

as someone that uses this

every day, I, I, I could.

I can relate to this.

Um, but there was a couple of

things that stood out to me.

One is like, social proof

is like a big thing in any

product marketing or product

kind of whether B2C or B2B,

but like in B2C, like I

think it is probably more

relevant to have like these

publications that really

champion your, like your.

Product right

out in the world.

Right?

Um, and they have really

great quotes from it, so

it helps build that trust.

It's less about wearing

B2B, it's like these logos

use us and B2C is like,

these publications who

know what they're talking

about are saying incredible

things about our solution.

Right?

Um, and so that felt like

it was positive, but the

part that really, I think.

There's just one line that

really stood out to me.

It says everything you

love about paper in

a digital notebook.

because to me it feels

like the, a lot of people

that do end up going, like,

especially new customers,

they take notes, they take,

they write down notes, they

like writing down notes.

They don't want to type it out

on their computer, et cetera.

Right?

And so.

Like if I, when, even when

I asked, I remember a few

years ago, I used to tell my

wife, why don't you just like,

write your notes on a, on,

on your computer, type it up.

And she's like, no, I

like to write it so I

can remember things.

Right.

Um, and so this, so this

line of everything you love

about paper in a ni digital

notebook, it, it gives you

that sense of people who

are kind of like on the

fence of whether they should

move to something digital.

Like they still get all

the value and all the

same kind of benefits of

writing it down, but now

it's just digitized, right?

It just makes it a

little bit better.

Elle: Yeah.

what I, um, what's standing

out to me and this is just

per the language that they

used, it's immediately tapping

into the emotion of joy.

Um, so that's what's I, I

think's working really well.

Their messaging is that it's

joyful and it's, um, causing

me to make that association

with their product, like,

oh, this is going to be a

joyful product experience.

so kudos there.

What do you think the PMM

could have done differently?

Anand: Yeah, I mean obviously

we talked a little bit

about like the hero and like

it's very product centric.

So does it, is it

relevant to everyone?

The event stuff?

Um, but there was two

things that stood out to me.

Like right after the hero,

they have this, I noticed

this buyer's guide thing.

Um, it's like clicked on that.

And it felt kind of

fell short to me.

Like, to me it felt like a

really great opportunity,

especially if they have

multiple products, to really

help the buyer understand

like, which product is

the right one for them.

Um, and I don't think it

really hit that in terms

of like, I was trying, like

there's places that you

can click on things, but

it doesn't change anything.

So I felt like that kind of

fell short in terms of what

my expectations were for that.

but the other one big thing,

like um, was two things,

but kind of connected.

they have this whole

section below of like

connect subscription, right?

So they have some

type of subscription

that you can add on.

I didn't really get a

clear sense of like what

that means necessarily.

Like what is that?

What is connect,

what am they getting

out of it?

And related to that, the big

question I have, and I, I'm,

I'm a customer, I use it, I

still haven't gone to figure

out if this is possible, but

the thing I really wanna see

is like I write these notes,

it somehow digitizes them

and makes 'em searchable.

Right?

Like, that would be like

really powerful to me,

Elle: Wait, that I

just assumed that that

would be part of it.

What, like,

Anand: Yeah, well there

probably is a way, I dunno

if it's part of this whole

Connect subscription or

if I, I do, I know when I

first started using this

thing a few years ago,

that was not possible.

Like, you can send the

digitized version, like PDFs

to yourself, but it doesn't

like change your writing

into, to, to text where

it could search across it.

Right.

So maybe it does it

now, but like that

is very important.

That, and I, and I, and I, and

I, I feel like they're missing

the opportunity to like.

Talk about that.

Right.

Especially 'cause they

talk so much about like,

organization and managing

things and finding ways to

like, keep things in order.

Like it doesn't necessarily

touch on the, the idea

of taking handwriting

and digitizing it into

like, you know, um, in a

Elle: Just.

Anand: Searchable.

Elle: Right.

Yeah.

That could be a, a

power feature that

they could tap into.

and whether they have that

feature or not, you know,

it sounds like they could

either bubble it up or maybe,

hey, add it to the roadmap.

okay.

We might be kind of getting

into this conversation

already, but how would you

iterate on this, um, from

a messaging storytelling

standpoint or like, maybe

what are some creative ideas

that you have for the PMM?

Anand: Yeah, I mean, I

think obviously that one

I just mentioned, like

just making sure, like

what are some of the.

The clear, not even

roadblocks, but features

that people would

have expect from this.

Right.

To your point, you

said you expected to

already be part of that.

Right.

Um, and so you would

potentially purchase this

thing and then realize

after the fact that you

can't actually do that.

Right.

Uh, or you, maybe you

can, it's just not

easy to figure out.

So like, just making

sure those things are

more clear and upfront.

I don't know.

I mean, I think like, to me.

again, I, I do enjoy like

the visuals and how they try

to bring it more to life.

Um,

Elle: Yeah.

Anand: I, I think where they

could really probably, um.

put a little bit more emphasis

on is like this whole idea

that I already said of like,

everything you love about

paper in a digital book.

Like, again, to me that feels

like probably the largest

roadblock to people buying.

Like they love the, the, the,

the process and the experience

of writing on paper.

Right?

Um, and this one sentence does

a good job of like, you know,

starting that conversation.

But can they, can they

expand on that moral right?

That, that's where I

would probably focus.

Elle: I, I was gonna say

the same thing, and I think

they've done a really good

job with like, sparking

some of that joy and to,

to double down on that.

And I don't, you know,

typically I say sell the pain.

I don't know if I

would do that here.

I think this is an exception

where I wouldn't sell

the pain and I would sell

the joy, and this is more

like, less less of feedback

for product marketing.

So maybe I'm not super

qualified to give this

feedback, but like some

of the images that they

have with the customers,

like they're a little.

Flat, it kind of doesn't

match the joy that I

would expect to have.

They do, like they, they

would, you know, it would

show what you can do

and that's really cool.

But I think maybe there's

something there around

storytelling with the joy

of everything you love about

paper, but like in digital.

So I'd love to

see more of that.

It would be really fun to do.

A campaign around that.

Um, I'm sure there's, if we

could get our hands on some of

their customer data, I'm Sure.

we'd have lots of ideas

Anand: Sure.

Yeah.

But, but even talking

about your idea of like.

Pain.

Right.

And you, you, you, you're

obviously saying maybe

not leaning to the pain

part, but the thing that

got me to finally make the

purchase is the fact that

I had all these notebooks

that were trying to pile up.

And I am one of those weird

people, but I don't like to

throw away those notebooks.

Right.

Because, not, not

that I'm ever gonna

go look at them again.

But you, you assume

maybe you do.

Right?

And so like, is

there

something

Elle: them,

Anand: tug on?

Elle: I have them

from the last 15 years

and it's like, I

can't throw 'em away.

'cause they're like, what

if there's something in

there that like, is like

a nugget of information.

No, I think you're right.

But, but you could do that

in like a still a joyful way.

not in the paints.

Uh, Yeah.

would love to just.

Brainstorm with their, with

their marketing team on that.

Anand: Okay.

Elle: okay.

So, thank you so much for

walking us through such a fun

critique and shout out to any

remarkable pmms out there.

We really like where you're

going with the emotion and

would love to see more.

Okay.

so Enon, so one thing that

I like to make time for is

a moment of gratitude, um,

on this podcast because

in product marketing we

never get anywhere alone.

We're always.

Building on each other and

learning from each other.

So first and foremost, thank

you for your time today and

I know it was a lot of work

to prep for this session and,

um, share your expertise.

So just wanna wrap up and

say thank you for everything

that you've done for us.

Anand: Yeah.

Thanks.

Thanks for having me all.

I, I really appreciate it.

It's been, it's been

a fun conversation.

Elle: Yeah, and just

a quick shout out.

Just put some good

kudos out in the world.

Turning it over to you.

Who are some pmms that

you've worked hand in

hand with who have made an

impact on your career and

molded you into the awesome

PMM that you are today?

Anand: Yeah, so I, I have

a couple people I'll, I'll

quickly give shout outs to.

So first it was like,

maybe not as much pm m but

like my managers, right?

So Melissa Palle, when I

joined Paysafe, uh, she was

the first time I realized

like managers, like managers

play important role in

your career development.

Like, I had not really

had great managers prior

to that, and like, I

got to see it firsthand.

How important a good

manager is to your

growth as an individual.

So ever since then, like

that's been a big factor

in my decisions to when

I'm looking for new jobs.

Uh, and then similarly,

when I was at Team Snap.

Uh, Desiree Jewel joined

our team as to lead our

marketing team, and she

had a product marketing

background, but she was taking

a more expansive head of

marketing role at that point.

But the way that she just

had like, the ability to

connect with people and really

have empathy for everyone

on the team, like the human

side of managing, like, I,

I really appreciate that.

I try to replicate that.

I'm not as good at it

as, as she is, but like

that's something that

I've always appreciated.

And then on the product

marketing side, like I've

worked with some great

product marketers, but I've

also worked for smaller

organizations, so there

wasn't as many of us.

Right.

Um, and so I've, I've had to

tap tap into other people.

And so I've been fortunate

enough to work with some.

Some folks you, you know,

you've probably heard of,

like Julian Sage, jam Khan,

uh, Daniel Cooperman, um,

of like, they've just been

so willing to like, have

conversations and chat and

like, hear ideas and kind of

bounce things back and forth.

Like they, like these

are well-known people.

They, you know, they have

busy things going on in

their lives, working for,

you know, great brands.

But the fact that they were

so open to have conversations

and not just once, but like

we've continued to have

like a strong relationship.

Um, I'm always thankful for

that because it allows you

to feel like you're not alone

in this thing and you're,

you're, you're talking to

other people and getting

validation and feedback and

continuing to like, feel good

about the work you're doing.

'cause you know, other

people will kind of see,

see, you know, bid in

your place and see, see

what you're going through.

Elle: I love that about

product marketing.

It feels like for the most

part, everybody in our

community is so willing to

share feedback and mentor.

Yeah.

And I couldn't, I couldn't

feel more similar to you

in terms of having you

get that one experience

of an amazing manager.

And same.

I will not like that is my

make or break decision on any

career, anywhere I go work.

If the manager isn't

amazing, it's a, it's a pass.

Anand: Yep.

A hundred percent.

Elle: Okay.

I promise.

This is my last

question for you.

Where else can we

access your expertise?

Is it best to find

you on LinkedIn?

Anand: Yeah.

LinkedIn's probably the best

place I, I, I'm gonna, I'm

on Twitter slash x, but like.

I don't talk about

marketing there as much

anymore, so, um, it's, I'm

not on there as much, so

LinkedIn is definitely the

best place to catch me.

Elle: Awesome.

Oh, well again, thank

you so much anon.

This has been a really

fun conversation.

Anand: Yeah.

Thanks Al. I really

appreciate you having me.

Elle: Uh, and thank you PMM

listeners for coming on this

adventure with us today.

I hope this episode leaves

you with inspiration to

take in the next step

of your own journey.