Product Marketing Adventures

Have you ever looked at a
huge company like Microsoft,

Cisco, Salesforce, or even
ServiceNow and thought,

"Wow, they must have a ton
of resources?" Resources

like a huge budget and a
whole team of designers and

marketers who specialize in
their craft, dedicated teams

for messaging, competitive
intelligence, enablement,

launches, you name it.

I used to think that, too,
and then I went to Cisco,

and I, learned something that
completely changed how I think

about enterprise marketing.

Yes, of course, enterprise
companies have incredible

resources, but those
resources are not sitting

around waiting for your
next marketing initiative.

Instead, they're spread across
hundreds of products, hundreds

to thousands of sellers,
countless priorities, and a

matrix organization that can
make even the most experienced

PMMs feel like one tiny speck
in a very, very big machine.

In fact, one of the biggest
surprises for me was this:

even inside companies
with tens to thousands of

employees, you're often still
the only product marketer

working on your launch.

You're responsible for the
positioning, the messaging,

the enablement, the
competitive, uh, strategy,

the partner story, the
launch, literally everything,

and somehow you're expected
to make it all scale.

That's exactly what today's
episode is all about.

With that, it is my
pleasure to welcome Anna

Startseva to the show.

Anna has done product
marketing across the full

spectrum, from startups
to mid-size companies,

to one of the world's
largest enterprise software

companies, ServiceNow.

Every stage has taught her
a different way to solve

problems, which gives
her a unique perspective

on what changes and what
doesn't as companies grow.

What I especially admire
about Anna is how she

approaches product marketing.

She believes great messaging
starts with listening,

listening to buyers, listening
to sellers, listening to

the people closest to the
deals, because that's how you

uncover the language, the pain
points, the positioning, and

all, everything that actually
resonates in the market.

Today, we're going behind the
scenes of one of her recent

product launches to talk
about what enterprise product

marketing really looks like
how she created scale as

essentially a solo PMM, and
why the most valuable work

we do as product marketers
still can't be automated.

Anna, it's amazing to have you

on the show

so great to be here, Elle.

Thank you so much
for having me

Of course.

I've been looking forward
to this conversation

since we first connected
a few months ago.

so just to set the stage a
little bit, I can't imagine

anyone would not know this,
but just to keep it clear

and get our listeners up to
speed, how would you describe

ServiceNow to someone who has
heard the name but doesn't

exactly know what they do?

Sure.

So ServiceNow is all about
workflow and automation.

If you've ever filled out
an IT support request at

your work, or you've had a
customer service interaction

through chat or phone or a
bot, or you've done-- gone

through a thing like new
hire onboarding, then there's

a good chance that you've
seen ServiceNow in action.

So we work with some of the
world's largest companies,

uh, such as Walmart,
Amazon, FedEx, Bell, um,

you name it, we probably
work with it, as well as

some cool growth companies

Yes, thank you for that.

And I personally
have experienced the

ServiceNow product at
a few of the companies

that I've worked at.

So I can attest it was
very easy to use as

an employee as well.

okay.

So today's episode is really
about the enterprise PMM

motion, and I feel like
your time at ServiceNow is a

perfect environment to talk
about this because we are

not talking about a small
team where one PMM can just

gather everyone in a room
and align the whole company

in a single afternoon.

That cannot happen in
this kind of environment.

We're talking more about
a company with tens to

thousands of employees,
thousands of go-to-market

people potentially, and a
huge product portfolio, and

a very mature enterprise
motion, to say the least.

So for the first segment
of our show, I want to

start with your case study.

You were launching a specific
solution into a segment

that was underserved by
ServiceNow, but, already a

still very competitive market.

So help set the stage for us.

What was going on in
the market and inside

the company when this
launch all got started?

Yeah, absolutely, Elle.

Thank you.

So at ServiceNow, we
n- we sell all kinds of

different, uh, products
across categories, and one

of the categories that we're
very well known for is IT

service management, and this
product w- is exactly in that

very well-known category.

So IT service management
has been around for

roughly 30 years, and
ServiceNow is a leader in,

in many of the elements
of IT service management.

So you can see us in G2
crowds as well as, in Gartner

Le-Leadership Quadrant.

So doing really well.

It is, however, a very,
very crowded market,

especially now that it's
not just the traditional

SaaS, uh, competitors that
are coming to our market

share, but also others such
as the AI native companies.

So there's a lot of
competition in the space,

and it's, it's a little bit
challenging to stand out with

a product that's been there
for a while, um, that is well

known, but is now facing,
um, different headwinds

from different competitors.

So that's the
external situation.

Now let me tell you about
what's happening internally.

So as you mentioned,
ServiceNow is a large company,

multi-metrics company.

We have hundreds of
products and very matrix

go-to-market motions.

So sellers are segmented.

Even within a segment,
they're already selling

different solutions, right?

So the launch is for the
specific solution, we needed

to really nail down what
segment of our sellers

will be selling it, how is
it differentiated out in

the market space, but also
within our own solution set.

So what is its place within
the broader ServiceNow story?

And it's very, very
important to get that

right so, so that we don't
confuse our sellers and we

don't confuse the market.

yes.

Okay, so what I'm hearing
is that it's really

crowded in two ways.

The first way is, as you
mentioned, externally, right?

Um, the market category
had been around for

quite a while, so there.

were-- It was quite mature,
and everyone's trying,

I'm sure, to add in their
AI story, I can imagine.

And then also internally,
the launch was competing

for seller attention inside
this massive portfolio,

um, which is so typical
set for an enterprise PMM,

this kind of, environment
to be operating in.

So let's talk about the task.

What did you actually
need to accomplish as

the PMM for this launch?

Yeah.

So there were just
a couple of things.

Number one is to
build clarity.

It's very important to
understand internally

even what is the need
that we're trying to

solve with this solution.

So what are we taking
to our sellers?

And then also to build out
that story externally, right?

So we already have 100
products, how come none

of them fit the need
and can't solve it?

So why is there the need for
this specific solution, right?

So, um, there was a lot
of work done before we

ever got started with
messaging and positioning.

There was a lot of internal
work done to define exactly

which segment, um, this
solution was for, which

problem it was solving.

We wanna f- stop confusing
and avoid actually confusing

the sellers by positioning,
the product too broadly.

So it, it really has to be
very specific, usually quite

narrow, to really help the
sellers understand when they

need to lead with the solution
over everything else that

they have, um, going on.

So yeah, that's, that's
kind of the, the building a

story component that's very
distinct, I think, from, um,

maybe some of the jobs that
other PMMs are doing in some

of the smaller companies
where they can really take

the liberty and kind of like
go wild with the story and

tell that, big, big grand
story and present a solution

that's solving everything
for everyone, right?

So, um, we have to
be specific, and

very intentional.

And then the second job
is really to build a

launch as a leading PMM.

So, as you mentioned,
I worked on this launch

myself day to day.

I was the lead PMM.

there was, of course, my, my
leader who attended all the

steering committee meetings
and kind of led the strategy.

But then day to day with
all the deliverables

you mentioned, like, you
know, building the launch

plan and the decks and
the enablement and the

competitive, it was mostly
me, doing all of that work.

And something that we
need to think about when

we're in an enterprise
company is that The, the

efforts need to scale.

So, right?

So we're not just, we're not
just putting things in on the

shelf and kind of waiting for
sellers to come and get it.

Um, we need to be very
mindful and proactive about

how they're gonna find
this information, um, how

we can make it easy for
them to access it, and also

how we scale it, not just
for the sellers, but for

the whole go-to-market,
kind of like team.

So the field marketing folks
and the analyst relations

folks and everyone else who
has a job to do, how do we

make it super easy for them to
find the right information, to

know exactly how this specific
launch fits in everything

else that the company is doing
into our, corporate narrative?

How do we talk about it,
um, with regard to our kind

of brand and the principles
that we're following so

that, that it all comes
together and it can scale?

So that's kind of like
the building a launch as

a lead PMM part there.

Then I also had
a personal goal.

I really wanted to be
an AI first PMM and use

it as much as possible.

I kind of had to because I was
the lead PMM on this launch,

and it just… You know,
you have to use some sort

of automation, and you have
to scale yourself, otherwise

it can pretty much kill you.

So you, you-- I needed
to use it, but I also

wanted to use it well.

And that, for me, came down
to a decision of when to

use AI and when to still
do the manual work, the

research, kind of like the
human intelligence part

that's needed to really
nail down the message.

okay, so you mentioned a
couple things that I think

are really important, and
the biggest thing is that

you've clarified what I
think is a misconception

for PMMs who maybe aspire
to work in enterprise but

haven't actually worked in an
enterprise-sized company, and

they think that they're gonna,
you know, have, like, five

PMMs swarming a launch like
this, and that's not the case.

Like, as you pointed out, you
have this, priority of driving

clarity for the sellers,
but then also f- building

the launch itself and all of
the work that goes into it.

so, uh, yes, it's true that
enterprises have access to

tools, but as we know, it's
not quite what we think.

So I have a feeling we're
gonna get into some of

the tools and the AI stuff
as part of your story, so

I'll hold on on my, like,
eagerness on act- asking some

of those questions just yet.

but give me a lo- a sense
of, like, what does, what

does the action actually
look like here, okay?

So once you, you reali- you
had your big objectives,

you know, the task at
hand for what you were

trying to achieve.

Where did you actually get
started in all of this?

Right.

For me, the first area, we, we
always have to be strategic.

So within a large organization
like ServiceNow, it's

about getting to know
and understanding the

ecosystem of this company.

Kind of what,
what are our OKRs?

What is important?

And where does this launch
land in this ecosystem?

so we know that kind of we
need to tell a story from

what internally, from what
people already know, kind

of these are the five main
priorities, and we need to

launch AI native SKUs, and
this is where this specific

launch highlights our
leadership in this space, and

this is why it's important.

So, um, that's the story
that we were building in

order to make this launch
spec- specific, strategic,

but also get the resources
that we needed to support

it and make it scale, right?

So it's, for me, it doesn't
even… the launch doesn't,

didn't even start with kind of
your traditional, uh, research

messaging positioning.

It starts with understanding
the ecosystem, where we

fit in, and then being able
to kind of advocate for

yourself and the launch
with the larger ServiceNow

community, um, to make
sure it's part of the plan.

So then, the second thing
that I did was work very

closely with our product and
strategy and sales to get an

alignment on all of these,
all of these pieces, because

it is es- essential, and if
people don't agree on the

importance and the priority
and kind of where this launch

fits in for a specific segment
of sellers, then, you know,

everything else falls apart.

So we need to have early
alignment, and that means lots

of Zoom con- conversations
with lots of stakeholders.

Um, more so than I've ever had
in companies of smaller sizes.

So folks, folks need
to get ready for that.

That's, that's, uh, there's
Uh, there's a lot, a lot of

hours there spent on calls
just hashing everything out

and make su- making sure
everyone's on the same page.

then, you know, we got
very specific, uh, with,

with my counterparts on
the segment, the buyer, the

product, and the problem
that we're selling-- solving

in the market, as well as
the maturity stage of our

buyers, very important.

Um, and the positioning.

Like, I also had the
temptation of going big and

telling this grand story
about how we were gonna solve

every single problem, and then

folks were

PMMs have that temptation

like, "Wait a
minute." Exactly.

You kinda wanna, you
know, 'cause that's why

you're in marketing.

You wanna tell a grand story.

Yeah.

kinda need to pull ourselves
back and, figure out how

to make it work f- with
your kind of constraints

and your focus, right?

So then the story, the
story had to be adjusted

to really fit, you know,
again, the segment and the

needs of the buyer there.

it ended up being a very,
very specific story that we're

solving for a buyer, and we're
preparing to launch with that

very specific set of sellers.

So, you know, it's just
nailing down those details and

making sure there's alignment
for e- for everyone involved.

That's very important
in an enterprise motion.

Yes.

Uh, I feel so seen hearing you
just describe some of that as

a prior enterprise PMM myself.

Like, I love that you started
with understanding the broader

ecosystem within ServiceNow,
and I- you mentioned, like,

the hours spent in alignment
meetings internally.

It really is.

It's hours.

It's so many meetings on
all those things that you,

that you mentioned, the
strategy, the messaging,

the positioning, the
findings, just to make

sure that everybody agrees
because you just to- you

have so many stakeholders
when you're operating

within an enterprise.

And it reminds me of what I
used to tell my team at Cisco.

I had a very hard lesson
earlier, early on in

my experience working
as an enterprise PMM,

where I didn't know.

I had, I, I to- fell into
the temptation of telling my

big story, and guess what?

My product was not one of
the prioritized products

for the rest of the company.

So I didn't get the resources,
and I had to go back to my

product team and explain what
happened, and it was A lesson

learned, but it's okay because
I learned from the lesson.

And then in the future,
I got to help my team at

Cisco then say, "Okay, this
is what we're gonna do.

We are not going to just
go forth and tell our story

like we're the only product
in the world that matters.

We are going to look at
the broader initiative of

the company, look at the
story that the rest of the

company is trying to tell,
and how does our product

fit into that?" that's how
we're going to try to get

resources, if any at all,
from the rest of the company.

And I guess what I'm trying
to say is just validate

what you're, what you're
describing, and say that,

you know, in lar- in a large
enterprise, your product

has to fit into that story.

And if you do not define that,
that very clearly, then even,

even if you don't get the
resources and you go out and

you, you launch to the best
of your ability without much

resources at all, you ha-
your, the field is going to

try to fill in that blank for
you, where they are gonna try

to make up how this product
fits into the broader story.

And you don't want that to
happen, because then that

could totally derail and put
a bunch of misconceptions

out there about what
your product does and why

your company is investing
in the re- engineering

resources to build it.

So, I just wanted to validate
everything that you're

saying and, you know, and
I guess to, to bring it

back to, to your story.

So now, once you had that
clarity, you mentioned that

you had to go forth, and
in our prep call you talked

about a message house.

So, as you started to
take some of that, like,

messaging and positioning
and put it all together, and

I'm imagining this message
house is what was part of

all of those conversations
that you had internally.

So tell us what that is
and why it mattered so

much for this launch.

Yes.

So Messaging House is
ServiceNow's way of kind

of standardizing all of the
launches and how we talk about

our products and solutions.

So there is currently over 70
Messaging Houses out there.

and they're just, you
know, I'm sure everyone has

heard of messaging docs.

You usually have one.

It's just something in a, um,
template that's standardized

where you talk about what
problem you're seeing on the

market, who is your buyer, how
are you solving the problem,

what's unique from anyone else
on the market, your elevator

pitch, your one paragraph,
um, your case studies, your

Yeah.

Proof points, yeah, market
validation, all of that stuff.

Yeah

Exactly.

It's all these things.

And the goal there is really
to come up with a very, very

strong point of view, um,
that everyone can agree on.

Again, a-agreement, kind
of an alignment is very

important in the organization.

And then we can build all
kinds of assets, and we

can scale in beautiful
ways once we have that

messaging house completed.

so for us, it's, it's
a document of about

six to eight pages.

All the 70-plus products
and solutions have the

same exact standard format.

It is very important to
get this document right.

It gets reviewed at the
highest level of VP or SVP,

um, of your business unit.

So it, it, it, you know,
has a lot of eyes on it.

Everyone wants to be in
agreement that this is the

right, uh, positioning.

We're going out with
the right messaging.

Um, so it's, it's an, a very
important document that takes

a while to put together.

Um, but once it's
there, it's, it doesn't

just sit in a folder
somewhere gathering dust.

it is used for creation
of all kinds of downstream

assets for the launch.

Um, it is used by our
analyst relations team

when they're getting ready
for the analyst meetings.

It is also very much used by
the campaign team because now

instead of coming directly to
product marketing, they kind

of have, um, the starting
point that they need to go and

get ready for their campaigns.

It is also used
by our sellers.

So isn't it strange
that sellers can now

use messaging house?

So

was about to say I'm shocked.

mean,

I would

They don't read
this several times.

yeah, the way we have it done
is that, it is ingested into

our internal AI, and then when
they search for kind of like

specific sales plays or things
associated with this product

or solution, the information
then comes up and they have

the latest and greatest.

But not just kind of like just
information on the messaging

house, it's very specific
for the account that they're

trying to land or expand.

So it's, it's, um,
very topical within

their own search.

So we make it, we make
it right for all of the

different audiences.

So this, this messaging
house is very important,

and it's used by all of
our go-to-market teams.

Yeah.

Okay, and you're getting
into the next question that I

wanted to ask you, which was
all about, basically how this

work that you do to create
the message house, how that

is, it, it's the foundation of
the entire launch, everything

that comes after it.

And you kind of, you mentioned
this already that about,

sellers using AI, 'cause one
thing that I was going, that

I was, that immediately came
to my mind after you mentioned

all of the stakeholders
who use this document,

I was very surprised by
that because it's contrary

to how I've always given
guidance on our messaging

and positioning documents.

I, I do have a messaging and
positioning template that

I personally like to use.

sounds like the one that
you're using is standard

across all of product
marketing within ServiceNow,

which I think is really
good, and Cisco had that too.

I also had my own that I
just like to do 'cause I

felt like it was very, very
thorough, and it's so funny,

I have a message house,
but it's like literally

looks like a little house.

It's like shapes on a slide,
like, with like a little roof

and like but I do have all of
the other research behind it

in a very thorough document.

But I typically don't let
non-PMMs look at that.

I use that deep research to
fill out all of the things

that my stakeholders do
see, and the reason why has

beco- has been because they,
A, don't really understand

parts of it, or B, they
will just copy and paste

stuff without tweaking it
for the right context for

which it will be used.

So it sounds like, though,
probably for a couple

of reasons, one, your
standardized approach is

probably helps to avoid
that 'cause everybody is now

familiar with the documents,
that they know how to use

it, and then two, you have
this AI context layer.

So tell us all about that.

Like, how is that, how did
that kind of become your, I'm

guessing, vehicle for scale
when you were as a solo PMM?

Absolutely.

so within ServiceNow last
year, there was an effort

started by, the PMM team,
and it's called, Nucleus.

Nucleus is kind of, it's not
the brain of AI, but it's,

it's, uh, it's a place where
we layer in all the, um,

grounding context for our AI.

So it's things like our
brand, how do we talk?

Who are our kind of
traditional buyer personas?

Competitive is in there,
and of course, these, these

product, messaging houses
are in there as well.

Now, when AI works and we
have, you know, AI for all

of our go-to-market teams,
it's kind of apps that sit

on top of this foundation.

It is not just going straight
to the, the internet and kind

of getting answers because
that is not differentiated.

It is not our DNA, right?

It is going and getting
the depth of information,

the color, how we talk,
the phrases we use, our

deep differentiation.

It's getting all of that
from that deep layer

that we call Nucleus and,
you know, our messaging

docs are part of that.

So the cool thing about it
is that now everyone is able

to speak with the same voice.

All these documents are
approved, um, everyone's

aligned on them, and we're
also able to scale so that

someone in the team that's,
that's doing campaigns,

all they have to do is
put in information, um, on

the campaign they want, so
the geography, who they're

inviting, um, the types
of assets that they want.

And then with, uh, Nucleus
fueling it and, you know, all

the AI on top, they're able
to get, you know, all of the

campaign assets that they
need that already have a lot

of the intelligence, um, that
we've collected in Nucleus.

So it simplifies
everyone's days.

We love it because we don't
have to approve every single

document that our, all the
go-to-market teams have.

And obviously, the
go-to-market teams love

it too because it just
streams li- streamlines

their work and it also helps
them run so much faster.

I love that.

I'm just, um, rem- I'm
remembering the days when

I had to review every
single little webpage.

And in an, an enterprise,
there are a lot of webpages

that you might need to update
when you're doing a product

launch or a product release.

so I, I definitely
don't miss those days.

Everything can kind of
be reviewed by AI now.

So, um, that's great.

That's very helpful.

And what the other thing
that I, um, that I'm hearing

from this is that while AI
is helping you scale, you

did so much of the true
product marketing craft

beforehand like, that was
the human element of it.

The human work that you
did was still the deep,

messaging and positioning
and the research.

And you talked about, and I
know this is kind of one of

your superpowers, is just
being a good listener and

knowing who to listen to and
what you're listening for.

So, and it's something too,
it, it sounds like that you,

you do the work first and
then you use AI to, what I've

always called 10X your value.

And that's something, that's
a principle that I've tried to

hold myself to, and that I've
tried to share with others.

So I guess talk to us more
about like that human element

first, and when you were
initially creating the message

house and all of the insights
that feed into that, how much

of that did you do on your
own versus using AI and what,

if you used AI at all, like
what, or any other tools, how

did that kind of show up in
the, in the final, deliverable

of the message house?

Wow, that's, that's a
great question, and I kind

of reflect on that a lot.

Um, to preserve that point
of view, I try to do as

much work by myself, kind of
manually, the old school ways.

so I did the interviews,
you know, with, with humans,

I love doing the interviews.

I think they're,
like, fun to do.

Yeah.

I'm glad you didn't
outsource that to AI

Exactly.

Then I recorded them, and I
really listened for unique

ways that my segment, my,
my buyers, are naming their

problem or some of the
wording that they're using

for the solutions, like
what gets them very excited.

So all the things that
you would usually listen

for to make for you great
messaging, those stay intact.

The AI hasn't replaced that
for me because I really

want to connect with these
buyers in, in human ways

and make them excited about
this product so they could,

you know, when they look
at the messaging, they

can self-identify and say
like, "This is for me.

I am, I am that." and
then kind of continue,

with the conversation.

The thing about AI that, is
interesting is that obviously

it can scale your work
and, and give you all these

fantastic outputs, but before
it does that, you really need

to feed it something authentic
that's truly uniquely yours

with a unique point of view.

And only then will you
get, a fantastic outcome

and that… And will be
able to 10X yourself.

So in my case, the interviews,
uh, with sellers, with, uh,

customers were done manually.

I also collected a lot of
research from Gartner and

other places about kind of
like the state of, um, the

segment that I was pursuing.

How do they like to buy?

Um, where do they like to
go to find more information?

What is their buying
group looking like?

So all that information
is super important to me

before I start building
that messaging house.

and then I also had some
exciting resources that

I've never had access to
in smaller companies I've

worked at before, and
that is called Evidenza.

I'm not sure if, um, a lot of
folks are familiar with that.

Evidenza is a research
company that does synthetic

persona market research.

So you can get all of
these synthetic personas

interviewed, ask them very
specific questions, just

like you would any other
buyer, and there could

be, you know, more than
1,000 personas interviewed.

So you're getting kind of
a, a very point of view on

things.

Yeah

love that.

I have not heard of Evidenza.

So, sorry, so it's
Evidenza Synthetic AI

or is it just Evidenza?

Evidenza is the name of
this research company,

and what they do is
synthetic persona research.

Synthetic broad market
research is, is overall

Cool.

We will have to
check them out.

We'll link them in the
show notes so people can

I'm

Yeah.

I know, I'm like, "We should
get a referral link for this."

No, I'm just… kidding.

kind of work with them,
I'm so amazed about the

detail, um, that, that comes
out of, of their work, and

I've, I've spoken with them
and they said that it's

kind of like 80% accurate.

So 80, 80% alignment
with my kind of target

buyer and what I would

get if I didn't
use this method.

It's really good, and it's

the volume of work that,
for the volume that

you get, it's, I'm,

Yeah.

So, uh, I'm always
very impressed by

what we get from them.

So that's kind of-- that's
a piece that's obviously not

manual, um, that just kind
of came in because I work at

ServiceNow and I was able to
benefit from that, and, uh,

it's just a really cool, um,
way to do research these days.

So yeah.

I did most of the work on
the messaging house by hand

as much as possible, putting
together all the information

from kind of like, uh,
how we wanna position the

solution with our buyers so
that they're not confused,

but also so that we can
explain the full value.

I use the words, I actually
usually even have kind of like

a, a little set of vocabulary
that I put inside of my,

um, documentation that then
fits, fits AI kind of like

use

that.

That is such a good idea.

I'm gonna steal that one.

already gave it to us.

Why not, why not use the
terminology and make AI kind

of, uh, do all this, all this
work to make it authentic?

yeah.

So the goal there is really
to capture customer voice

as opposed to the PMM voice
or the AI voice, right?

I really want, that customer
voice captured so that we can

reflect it back and people can
kind of self-identify and say

like, "Yes, this is really me.

This speaks to me."

That is so cool.

I love that.

Um, and I love that
you encourage the first

draft being of everything
being more as much

human-driven as possible.

and truly, that is
where your creativity's

going to come out, your
unique point of view.

Um, so if anyone takes
anything away from

this conversation,
I hope it's that.

Um, so okay, so once the
message house, you, you

mentioned the message house
itself, that it sees a lot

of eyes, and you have… it's
ve- sounds very iterative.

But once it's all approved
and all said and done,

what did AI actually
help you create or scale?

Yeah, everything.

So once we have our messaging
house and we have our personas

in, so I obviously had
those synthetic personas,

but I also built something
even more bespoke for me

because I had all that
interview data as well.

So I, I, my very specific
personas as well.

Then they form kind of my,
um, the foundation of that,

of my, my project and my AI,
and then, then we go big.

Then it's everything.

First call decks, call
script, website copy, sales

plays, enablement materials,
partner launch documents.

Everything can be scaled
from there using your

foundation documentation.

Obviously, there's best
practices, like, have many

years doing this, so I kinda,
I kinda make sure it's, you

know, the right content for
the right audience and it

fits within the parameters
of what we're trying to do.

But honestly, it was so
easy to scale because

I had that foundation.

I'm sure I was able to run
at least 50% faster, if

not kind of closer to 70,
because, I didn't have to

second-guess myself about,
"Hmm, would, would this

audience really use these
words?" Or, "Am I connecting

to them on the right level?"
Even, you know, if we present

them with this demo, is
this the right demo flow?

I was just able to ask my
persona what, what they

wanted to see, and then got a
script out of, you know, AI.

So how cool is that?

So, Obviously, you, you
need to use judgment, right?

It's not gonna
be a, um, do all.

Uh, but hey, going 50, 70%
faster is amazing, and I,

I will take that any day.

So the ability to scale with
AI was, was truly fantastic.

That is so, so interesting.

And you, you mentioned
a couple things here

that, that I feel like
I just have to call out.

So one thing that really,
really matters here, and

I'm, not quite sure, like,
what the solution is or what

my guidance even is, but
this is not the first time

that this has come up on
this podcast, where I have

a guest like yourself, who's

You're very seasoned,
you're very experienced,

so when you are using
these AI systems, you have

very strong discernment
on what good looks like.

You also did the product
marketing craft yourself,

for the most part.

L- little bit of help
from some tools, for

everybody's got tools.

But, um, you did the work
on your own to create

this message house.

So when you then would, um,
turn to AI to create some

of these assets or s- or
sales enablement material,

you know exactly what you're
looking for and what good is.

So, uh, the reason why I
bring that up is because

I feel like, maybe this is
a conversation for another

day, I don't wanna make our
po- this episode too long,

but we should come back here
and have this conversation.

I feel like we're shoving AI
down people's throats, and I

worry for the more earlier in
career folks who don't have

the expertise that you have.

They just frankly don't have
the years of experience, they

don't have the discernment,
they don't have the judgment.

Um, and that's not, it's
not expected that they do.

They'll earn it over time.

But I, I don't know kind of
what that new generation of

marketers is going to look
like with the push to use

AI in the way that you have.

So I don't wanna derail this
totally, but do you have

any quick thoughts on that?

Um, I'm I'm kind of in
the same boat, right?

Like, how do you learn,
if there are no best

practices or examples if
you're in a small company

and, you know, you kind of
only have a few resources?

Um, I think it's, it's
tricky, and that's probably

why you listen to folks like
yourself, Elle, and kind of

participate in some of the
other, organizations to get

some of those best practices.

Because yeah, you don't,
you don't learn product

marketing in college.

That's, that's not a thing.

You kind of learn on the job.

Um, yeah, that's, and that's
why it's so important to

still, within companies,
maintain some balance of folks

that are seasoned while you're
still bringing in those, those

new folks to, to do the work.

Yeah

right, 'cause you could risk
the, this whole purpose of,

like, using AI to actually
give you some really bad

results if you don't, if
you're not feeding it,

you know, with the right,
with the right stuff.

Okay.

All right.

So, um, bring us home.

I wanna merge two different
topics into one question be-

just for the sake of time.

So you talked about sales
plays in our prep call, so I

would love to hear about that.

And as we're kind of talking
about sales, sales plays,

can you talk through how
this, impacted the overall

results of your launch?

Absolutely.

Sales plays, uh, an important
and sometimes misunderstood

technique, I would say.

Um, ServiceNow goes to
market with sales plays.

Folks don't sell individual
products or even solutions.

They, they have kind of a
whole motion attached to it.

It's a step-by-step
instruction of how to sell

a bag of products, for
lack of a better word.

Um, and we create in
product marketing the

sales play, right?

So then it has all the
information they need

about who is their specific
buyer, um, what do they

need to tell them, what
problem are they solving

for them, what maturity
stage we're going after,

um, and what do they need
to show in order to v- win.

And then a product marketing
individual prepares all of

that and puts it together.

So it's, it's kind of a,
it's kind of like here are

all the steps you need to
take to have a win, right?

Um, and that's how
s- sales are trained.

So they have
these sales plays.

They don't kind of go
and get an individual

deck here or there.

They just go, um, to now
their, to their account

dashboard, and then they're
able to see what are,

what is the specific sales
play that is associated

with a specific account.

And then they just simply
press a button, and then

they have all the information
they need about kind of

like latest intel from this
account, what's going on with

this com- company overall,
and where we can come in

and kind of, position new
products, additional products.

Um, and then a deck is
generated, a, a kind of a,

a contract can be generated.

They have all of
the success stories.

Um, so everything they need
they can get in one place.

And it's, again, it's not
just, "Oh, here's a pitch

deck for a product." It's
like all the assets you

need in one place, as
well as a step-by-step

instruction of how to win.

So yeah, we're just trying to
make it as easy as possible

for our sellers because
we realize they're selling

so many different things.

Yeah.

And it's important to note
here that as I'm assuming

there's some kind of AI
component that enables these

sellers to generate a pitch
deck or a contract, et cetera.

And again, that is built
on your message house.

So it's all so, this is,
this is, we, we keep coming

back to the message house.

It's, it's an
important document.

Foundation The nucleus.

Yes, yes.

Okay.

So you, you mentioned this
earlier that one of your

success metrics was that you
yourself as a, an enterprise

PMM, you got to move like 50
to 70% faster with this entire

approach that you've taken.

Is there anything more to the
story here for how you were

able to bring this to life?

Um, yeah.

I think probably having
all the information, um,

that you would ever want on
your, on your, um, product

as well as your persona
is extremely important.

You're able to move fast.

Um, the relationships that you
build are extremely important.

That's another human thing
that we need to do ourselves.

So in my case, whenever I had
interviews with my, um, the

buyers or with the customers,
I would bring back all, all

the intel to my broader team,
including product, strategy

people, sales ops, so that we
were all working kind of from

the same set of assets, and
they understood that if I'm

moving in a certain direction,
it is for a reason, right?

So, so we continued
to stay aligned.

I continued to bring them
value, and I was kind of a,

I felt like a valued person,
um, launching the product

because, uh, you know, I was,
I was part of every single

conversation because I, I had
insights that they wanted.

Yeah.

You got that seat at the table
that every PMM dreams to have.

So I absolutely
love this story.

I love how you did the
PMM craft yourself.

I love the tools that you
mentioned, and just how you

knew which players to bring
along for the ride internally.

and everything is
something that I think

most PMMs, especially
enterprise PMMs, aspire to.

So let's turn this into a
very quick coaching session

and make a playbook for me.

Say that I am an enterprise
PMM at another company,

different product,
different market, so,

you know, obviously no
competition or anything.

But how do I get started?

How would you coach
me through this?

What would step one be?

first place is getting
that truth right.

You really want to understand
your buyer, what they feel,

what, what they actually
wanna buy, and you wanna have

that documented and bring
that to the rest of the team

So that could be with
like customer interviews.

This is where maybe we
could use, what is it,

Yeah

I love that.

Okay, perfect.

And then once I get
that truth, I do all my

foundational research,
um, build out personas

and everything in between.

What's Step two What's next?

Step two is
building that story.

So in my case, it was
creating a messaging house.

Um, so any type of a document
that you will continue to

come to and use it as a
foundation for everything

else, all the assets that you-

And keeping in mind that
that messaging house is

going to be seen by all
of those stakeholders.

And I would-- I, I really
love how you're partly just

lucky that ServiceNow is
already aligned on what the

messaging house looks like.

But if you're-- work
somewhere that maybe your

stakeholders have never seen
a messaging house before,

definitely Make sure that
everybody's familiar with the

document and how to use it,
otherwise chaos could arise.

Um, so okay.

So I get-- build out the,
my differentiated story,

and it's documented in
the messaging house.

So I, I did my research.

I got the buyer truth.

I did the messaging house.

next?

Make sure that story reaches
the field in a useful way.

In my case, it is, of course,
the enablement of our sellers

as well as the partners, but
then it's also to make sure

that I have my sales play
that is linked in all of their

tools so that they can easily
use it, easily generate their

sales play, follow the steps,
have all the assets available.

Um, if that's not there,
if you were just thinking

that launch is like building
a story in a pretty deck,

I'm, I'm afraid, um,
there's, there's a little

bit more to it, right?

Um, and it-- you just
need to make sure you

have that route to market

Perfect.

Okay, so including the sales
play, and this was actually

one of your goals that you
stated in the very beginning,

was creating the clarity for
not only obviously for your

buyers, but like for your
sellers so that they know how

this fits into everything,
and obviously giving them the

tools and resources for them
to use this amazing story

that you just put together
in the messaging house.

Okay, so makes sense.

what's next after I get all
of my materials out to sales?

Yes.

Um, while you, you drink
a glass of champagne,

you celebrate, and
you quit your job.

Ob-obviously.

Oh, hello.

No.

No, you don't do those things.

No,

It's not done yet

the job is never done.

You treat launch as
the first goalpost.

This is not the finish line.

Launch is just one
moment in time.

It is not the end.

You keep doing the real
wor- work of connecting

with your, your sellers.

You wanna understand what's
working, what's not working,

how is this, um, landing
in the field, and you make

changes to both your assets
as well as potentially

your messaging house.

You work very closely with
your campaigns teams, your

BDRs, to make sure they
have what they need, uh, to

take your story to market.

So you, you need, you need
to continue the momentum.

The one thing that I like to
do for sellers, uh, um, it's,

it's… for me, it's not a
nice-to-have, I think it's a,

it's a great tool, is whenever
there's a win in the field, I

like to document that win and
then bring it back to sellers

on the channels they already
use, so Slack or Teams.

Um, it's an easy way to
show that, hey, we're doing

something exciting and
this is really landing and

exactly how it is landing.

So there's a write-up about,
you know, who was this company

that bought, why, who did
we compete with, and what

did the seller do to land.

It's a perfect way to do
kind of like just-in-time

enablement because you never
really get a chance to have

another big enablement on,
on the same launch, right?

Um, but this way, um, your
sellers still get these little

bits of snack enablement
over time, um, that you

can leverage with them

I love the win stories tip.

That is so strong and
such a good way to

keep building momentum.

And there's, um, also
something to be said about

your earlier insight that
you had around, um, not

insight, I would say maybe
it's more intuition is more

what I meant to say, but
around taking your product and

attaching it to the broader
company and making sure that

it fit in with the narrative
of the broader company.

There's something to,
continuing with that, um,

intuition and as the company's
narrative continues to

change and new campaigns
get developed, that you're

keeping a pulse on that for
opportunity to bring your

narrative, your product
narrative into that broader

enterprise narrative as well.

Yeah.

It ex- it, it happened for,
for me in a really cool way.

As I was working through
the launch, there was a

kind of a nice-to-have, but
because I was able to scale

myself with AI and like
run so fast, I, I really

took that as an initiative,
and that is getting a

great customer story.

Um, there was a shortlist
of like 10 customers, and

I went for the one with the
biggest and best name, and

their story aligned so well.

I, I've honestly never had
that experience, but like

just hearing them tell me what
they're experiencing and the

solutions they're using and
how they're going about and

what success they're seeing,
I'm like, "Oh my God, this is

perfect. I need this story."
Um, thankfully, the customer

was super receptive, and at
the end of the day, they did

a ton of things with us, like
an interview, a PR quote for

our, um, quarterly release,
as well as, you know…

Yeah, like they were
also part of our big, um,

knowledge customer event
in Las Vegas on stage.

And we were able to do so
much because, you know, they

were willing, but also because
I had the time to actually

go and like interview them
and build the relationship

and do all the things.

Um, so this, that story,
we were able to tie that to

kind of a, a bigger company
narrative that was evolving,

and we were able to tie it
to this new AI native launch.

Um, and, you know, so it,
it became a bigger moment

than what it was sup-
you know, supposed to be

originally, just because we
had all the pieces in place.

Um, so very cool.

Just sometimes it's good
to do the extra work, um,

because it might just land
you in a better position

and give you some spotlight.

Yes.

You brought up such a great
point, and something that I

think is u- is pretty unique
to enterprise, and y- your

example and your story is,
like, a testament to this.

So when you have, and you
already know this, but

when you have an enterprise
customer, when they are

selecting their vendor,
they are not looking at a

company for like, "Oh, you
have the feature I want.

I'm gonna buy your product
because you have the feature.

It checks a box, box, and
we're done." No, no, no, no.

When an enterprise customer
chooses an enterprise

solution, they are choosing
a path, which means they

are likely going to select
multiple other products

from your portfolio that
is going to be very deeply

entrenched into their
tech stack somewhere.

So all the more reason why
it is to your benefit as a

PMM to think about how your
product is going to fit into

that product narrative, and
I love that you had the,

like a bold, um, you know,
strong brand customer to

validate all of that for
you makes it even better.

So

kudos to you.

That's awesome.

Good for you.

Yeah, got lucky.

Yeah

Okay, last question for you
on this topic, and then we're

going to switch on to the
next segment of the show.

If you had one piece of
advice for a PMM who is

maybe a new enterprise
PMM, they'd, they're going

through their first launch
ever, like what's, what's

maybe one piece of guidance
that you have for them?

Just one piece of
guidance, right?

Um, yeah.

Know-- understand the company
and where you sit in the

ecosystem because it will make
things so much easier for you.

Sometimes you need to lean
into certain areas that,

you know, are not, um, are
not natural, like having

lots of conversations
to get alignment.

You know, it, it feels like
why, why are we spending

so many hours talking
about the same thing?

But it's actually very,
very important to align

with all your stakeholders
before you go fast and kinda

build out all of your more
traditional launch assets.

Um, yeah.

So it's understanding what's
important for your specific

company and how you can,
um, kind of provide the

most value in that space

I love that.

You know, typically when
I ask this question, I get

some variation, I would say
at least like 75% of the

time, some variation of like,
"Know your customers, talk

to customers." But I love
that your recommendation

is to start with know where
you sit in your org, and

it's so true for enterprise.

It just, it is what it is.

I, I think that's a
great piece of advice.

So, um, thank you so
much for that, and thank

you for this story.

Uh, it was just such a delight
to walk through this with you.

Um, okay.

So now I wanna switch
to the next segment of

our show, which is the
messaging critique.

So this is where, as product
marketing experts, we will

analyze real world marketing.

Um, and the fun part is,
Anna, as my guest, you

get to pick the company
we'll look at today.

Some quick ground rules.

One, we're gonna pick
a company that you're

pretty familiar with or
you're familiar with the

market, 'cause it wouldn't
be fair to critique a

company that we don't
really know their customer.

And then you're gonna tell me
what stood out to you, what

they do really well, and what
you wish the PMMs would've

considered differently.

without further ado, like
reveal the company we'll

be looking at today.

Well, today we're talking
about Microsoft Copilot.

If you are one of the
people within the 40%

of the working adults in
the world using Microsoft

tools, you're probably
very familiar with Copilot.

Okay.

But for those of us,
admittedly me, I mean, I've

heard of Copilot obviously,
but briefly summarize for

the, the 60% that does not
use Copilot, what, what is it?

Yes.

Microsoft Copilot is an
AI productivity assistant

that works with all of
your Microsoft 365 tools.

So things like Outlook,
Excel, Teams, PowerPoint

all have this Copilot AI
that can, um, assist you

I love it.

It's giving like older,
older brother next

generation of like Clippy,
remember from the old

Microsoft.

thanks.

I'm kidding.

I'm sure it's far more
sophisticated than that.

Okay.

So, so it sounds like target
audience or target customer

is probably like the working
professional, working

professionals who are, who
are working maybe traditional

desk jobs, you know.

Would you say that that's

accurate?

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, you've … Sure.

Yeah, that makes more sense.

Okay.

What stood out to you
about the messaging or

like what's working really
well with the messaging?

Yeah.

I'm, I'm looking at their,
um, website as we speak.

Um, I think overall
there's, there's messaging

here that, you know,
works for the audience.

So if, if I'm the audience
and, and I'm using Microsoft

tools, I do want to run
faster, I do want assistance

with my work, and I, I am
very happy that this works

across the applications.

Like, so you can get things
done across all of your

Microsoft applications without
kind of logging in and out.

Um, that definitely helps.

Um, so I think they hit
on some very important

points for, um, a knowledge
worker like you or me

Okay, so it sounds like
they know their audience

pretty well, or at least
it seems like they know

their audience pretty well.

So what's one thing that
you think they should

consider to do differently?

Uh, yeah.

Looking at their page, I
would say the tone of the copy

sounds a little bit generic,
like someone may have just

gone in with AI and did,
did some copy creation here.

Um, so looking at the wording,
empowering organizations,

supercharging, um,

Oh, that should be on
the do not use list.

Those are some of the words
that are becoming a little

taboo in the, in the product
marketing space, definitely

have the place on this page,
and it's like, oh my gosh.

Um, so I feel, I feel like
as individuals, if I was

just, um, trying to look
at Microsoft Copilot versus

some of the other tools in
the space and I saw this

copy, I, I would be a little
bit put off because it just

sounds a little bit generic.

So like n- now our
antenna tune out, right,

when we hear this copy.

Totally.

And as a non, Microsoft
user, I would-- Like, it just

kind of makes me feel like,
is this kind of like their

version of like, you know,
Gemini that, uh, from Google

that like is in everything?

Is it something else?

Is it… You know, it
just, it-- Because they're

using those words, it
just feels like, oh,

maybe this isn't for me.

Maybe this is supposed to
be for like an IT person,

like who's purchasing
the, the technology.

So I don't know.

It's, it's still, While they
are an enterprise company,

and they have all the r- all
the resources as most people

think, it's interesting that
an enterprise company that

you think would have all these
resources to have like the

perfect messaging, maybe could
improve on the messaging.

So what would your guidance be
if you were the PMM coach for

the PMM for Microsoft Copilot?

How would you coach them to
take this to the next level?

Yes.

A couple of things.

I would definitely go in
with a more human message to

really connect with someone
who is using your solutions.

My, my biggest use case
for Copilot is really

finding information.

You know, you, you go through
so much every week, and then

two weeks later you really
need to find that document or

what the person said word by

Especially in enterprise,
having the context

is so… It's Huge.

It's make it or break your job

Absolutely.

Um, and that's where
Copilot is so very useful.

You can just ask it kind
of to go and find, find

the thing, and it does.

So that's, that's been
such a big time saver.

Or if you've been out
on vacation, summarizing

what's happened, um, and
kind of what you need to do

next, extremely, extremely
helpful and efficient.

Um, so I would, I would
connect with some of those

more human elements and
use the voice that, um, a,

you know, a, a knowledge
worker may have without

supercharging or transforming.

I, I don't feel my day
is transformed, but

but it is very helpful.

Fewer headaches.

a stretch

Right?

Yeah.

and then also something
that you highlighted, how

is Copilot different from
some of the other tools like

Gemini or Claude, et cetera.

So it would've been great
to have a little bit of

a description of what
Copilot brings to the table,

uh, when others don't.

Finally, why I think
Microsoft is still doing

an amazing job, and n- none
of what we said probably

even matters, is because
distribution matters so much

for an enterprise company.

We are not buying Copilot
from this website ever.

It's already built into our,
you know, subscription, and

we just get it in our apps.

And I'm thinking that probably
it's the distribution and

it's the sellers out in
the field who are upselling

and, you know, providing
all these packages directly

to enterprise buyers.

That's, that's where the
magic really happens,

not on the website.

I imagine Microsoft is doing
a really good job of selling

in the field as opposed to
selling through the website.

So that's just a lesson in
sales and the importance

of distribution models.

Absolutely.

You're spot on here, and I
was gonna say, I bet this page

isn't even for humans anyway.

It's for, like, AI to be
able to help the procurement

team make sure that, you
know, their Microsoft

Suite checks a box.

Like

It's a good point.

I wasn't supposed
to look at it.

Oh, man.

I know, yeah.

This wasn't for us.

What were we thinking?

Okay, so good.

Well, Microsoft, obviously
you're, you're clearly

crushing it, so and maybe
none of this even matters.

But just some tips in case
you do want to spruce up your

Microsoft Copilot messaging.

okay.

So, um, on, Anna,
thank you so much.

This is, has been such a
wonderful conversation.

and of course, one thing I
always like to make space for

in this podcast is a moment
of gratitude, because none of

us get anywhere in our careers
without having someone else

to guide them and coach them.

So, thank you so much again
for you taking the time

to prep for this and, um,
share all your insights.

And I'd love to turn it
around for you to give

some shout-outs to some
PMMs who have made a real

impact on your career.

So, um, let us know who
are those PMMs that we can,

uh, give some kudos to?

Yay.

Thank you.

Um, and yeah, it's been, it's
been a pleasure to be here

and have this conversation, so
thank you for the time and the

space, uh, to tell my story.

Uh, as for PMMs, is
it weird to give a

shout-out to my boss?

Not at all.

Literally, like more than
half my episodes are like,

Um, Juliana Bouvet is pretty
amazing and really great

at strategic thinking,
navigating big organization,

change management, and
just allowing space for

her team to do their best
work, which I so appreciate.

Like, the launch
was a lot of work.

I'm not gonna, I'm
gon- I'm not gonna lie.

Um, but I was happy and
excited because I felt like

I have room and space to
bring my best work forward,

and it will be encouraged
and kind of embraced.

So, um, that was a really
fantastic experience for me.

And another person who's
doing an incredible job

in helping us transform
the whole of ServiceNow

actually is Abid Chaudry.

He is the godfather of
Nucleus at my company.

Um,

pretty important person
to have for this launch.

right?

He's a PMM who came up with an
idea that we needed grounding

and is figuring out the way
to make all of this happen,

on an enterprise level,
which is not for the faint

at heart because there's so
many systems and security

and teams, uh, that need to

all come together to
support these objectives.

Um, so some really cool
work that he's undertaking

and leading PMMs to do, and
helping us actually stand out

in, in this huge organization
and kind of have a voice

That's wonderful.

Sounds like people that should
be on the podcast sometime.

Hmm.

Absolutely, yes

Awesome.

Okay.

And this is my last
question for you, I promise.

Where else can we
access your expertise?

Is it best to just
find you on LinkedIn?

Yes, I am active on LinkedIn.

I usually share tips on
product marketing as well as

job search, um, especially
for some of the younger PMMs

looking to learn the craft
and land grand positions.

My, um, my handle or
what do you call it?

My

I know.

Yeah, URL maybe?

I don't know.

Oh, sorry.

If I like Twitter my handle.

I know, right?

Yeah

AnnaStartsWithAPMM.

Uh, you can easily find me.

There are very few
PMMs with my name.

Uh, it's very unique in that,
and would love to connect and

keep the conversation going.

Awesome.

And I think I saw that you
have been speaking with PMA

as well, like with various
public speaking engagements

or, um, you know, sharing
your expertise there.

So just another place
for folks to find you.

all right.

Thank you again, Anna.

Um, and hey, PMM listeners, if
you liked this episode, please

share it with a PMM friend,
and I would be so grateful

if you would leave a review.

It helps tremendously
with our reach.

Thank you so much
for coming on this

adventure with us today.

I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to

take in the next step
of your own journey.