Product Marketing Adventures

today we are talking

about pricing.

Getting your pricing

strategy right can make

or break market share.

Great product marketers know

that well executed strategy

doesn't just drive revenue.

It shapes perception,

influences adoption, and can

determine whether your product

wins or loses in the market.

You know, pricing strategy

is one of the most

powerful but very often

overlooked, levers in the

product marketing world.

And that's because in

many companies, pricing

doesn't actually sit

within product marketing.

Sometimes it falls under

finance or product, or

even sales, which means

a lot of pmms don't get

hands-on experience.

But if and when you

need to own pricing,

you need to follow an

expert to do it right.

With that, it is my

pleasure to have n

Nupur Vilas on the show.

I have been enamored

with N Nupur's work

ever since I met her.

Let me tell you why.

Nupur is the current head

of product marketing at a

company called Kustomer.

She is a force to

be reckoned with.

She's best known for

driving AI powered CX

innovation In High impact

go-to market strategies.

She's led game changing

launches at Twilio, you know,

finding powerhouse brands

like Segment and SendGrid,

all while shaping the

company's market architecture.

She's a sought after

speaker at Dreamforce, AWS

reinvent, and Google Next.

N Nupur is a true

leader and mentor in

the PMM world n Nupur.

It is amazing to

have you on the show.

Wow, that's a

glowing introduction.

Thank you so much.

er, I'm so happy to be here.

Of course.

And I actually have a really

funny confession to make

that I don't think I've

ever shared with you before.

So I remember my early days

at Twilio, and this was

before the pandemic, so

everyone was in the office.

So various folks across,

marketing and product

would talk about this

amazing PMM named Nupur.

And I feel like a little

bit of a fan girl right now.

But I remember the first

time like seeing you in an

elevator and it was just you

and me in an elevator, and

I just wanted to meet you.

So I complimented your

jacket as an excuse

to introduce myself,

That's actually

such a funny story.

to be fair, it was

a very cute jacket.

I don't remember this jacket.

I need to go dig

I know.

my closet.

I know.

But in all seriousness, your

reputation precedes you.

And I'm just so excited

to have you here.

So thanks again.

I'm so happy to be here.

it's obviously been lovely

meeting you at Twilio and

working with you at Twilio

and excited to be here and

chat all things pricing.

Let's do it.

Okay.

So diving right in.

tell me first,

what is Kustomer?

Kustomer with a K.

Tell me about it.

Yeah, happy to.

Like El said, I'm Nupur.

I currently lead product

marketing at Kustomer,

customer with a K, as she

said, Kustomer is an AI

powered CX platform that puts

data at the core of everything

we do, and by leading with

that data first approach,

we enable businesses to

deliver customer interactions

that are far more.

Personalized,

proactive and relevant.

And you know, in today's

world, great customer

experience isn't just about

responding to inquiries.

It's all about anticipating

needs earlier and providing

value at every touch point.

And that's what excites me

the most about customer.

We are redefining what's

possible with AI and making

customer service smarter,

faster, and more human.

How exciting AI is all

the buzz right now.

and you hear a lot too,

more specifically about our

world and product marketing.

We hear a lot about how

pmms should be using AI

for things like executing

messaging and positioning,

but, You're talking about

something potentially even

bigger than that, um, and

something that I would argue

impacts customers directly.

So for this first segment

of our show, I wanna start

with a case study of how

you used Market Insights

to transform the pricing

strategy for a customer.

So first, tell me more

about what was going on at

customer when you realized

you needed to transform

the pricing structure.

Happy to.

Well, so as you mentioned,

pricing is something that

pmms typically get to

influence, but not lead.

As you said, sometimes it

lives in operations, product,

or even finance, but in those

very rare cases when product

marketing can play a central

role in pricing, it's, it's

kind of amazing and I was very

fortunate to have been in a

position to be able to drive

that here at customer, but.

Before we get into customer,

let me tell you what we've

observed in the market and

with our Customers as well.

So, You know, as you

said, AI everywhere.

The way we work is changing

And as a product marketer, I

find myself accomplishing so

much more in just hours that

would take days or even weeks.

and the speed is just,

incomparable.

and this shift isn't

just affecting marketing.

it's transforming every

industry and every

department, including customer

experience right now, CX.

Is at that forefront

of disruption.

And with newer and

more advanced AI models

coming out, the level

of personalization and

self-service that businesses

will be able to deliver is

something to closely watch.

But with this transformation

also comes the need

to think about how we.

Price software.

in the past, the

standard approach was

the Salesforce model.

You pay per seat or per

license, and that was the

typical SaaS structure.

But in today's AI driven

world, with so much of CX

being automated and optimized,

you gotta ask yourself, does

that model still make sense?

Sometimes it might,

But in many cases it.

may be time to explore new

pricing models that better

align with the value that

customers actually receive.

Ah.

Okay.

So I want to double down

on something you just said.

You said something about

aligning pricing to value.

So whether or not you consider

the role that AI plays, I'm

gonna guess that anchoring

on value is going to be key.

So tell me more about that.

when you say pricing

models need to align with

value, what does that mean?

Yeah, well, when we rolled

out the outcome based pricing

model where customers only

pay when the platform has

actually helped them, rather

than paying for Licensers

seats that they may or may

not use to their full capacity

through the year, and just

to put it, simply think

about customer experience,

it is a seasonal business.

There will be spikes during

some parts of the year,

like Black Friday or the

December holiday season,

for example, but that's not

gonna be sustained through

the year, and that's why we

think outcome-based pricing

makes sense for businesses.

It's a fair approach where

customers only pay when their

customers receive outcomes.

Aha, outcome-based pricing.

I'm here for it.

no one ever wants to pay

more than what they're using.

okay, so let's say that

I'm a PMM and, I'm inspired

by what you're doing

here, and I decide that I

need to conduct a pricing

transformation for my product.

let's outline the steps

that I or any PMM out

there would need to take.

What's step one?

That's awesome.

So I mean, if anyone

is starting out, it's

really, really simple.

You gotta think about it.

In terms of phases.

There will be four phases.

The first one is discovery.

Then you have research,

design and operationalization.

Happy to talk through

each phase, starting

with discovery.

That's the very first one.

The primary focus during the

discovery phase is defining

the problem that you're trying

to solve, which really starts.

From that point, and for

that, I would really lean

on the leadership team.

You know, having open,

free flowing conversations

with the leadership team

will help everyone gain a

clear understanding of the

challenges at hand, and that

will shape the foundation

of your pricing strategy.

And that phase really

helped us uncover key

factors like internal and

external headwinds risks.

Early hypotheses because the

leadership team has been so

ingrained with pricing and

they've been around since

the start of the company.

And so there's just so much

more in tune with the problem

that they wanna solve.

So it's really important

to getting that clarity

as early as possible.

so I will say the discovery

phase is probably the shortest

phase, but it's also the

most critical one because as

I said, no one has a better

vantage point on the business

than the leadership team.

Yeah, of course.

Okay, so we've got, just

so I am reiterating what

I'm hearing, you have four

phases, discovery, research,

design, and operationalize.

Yep.

Okay.

So helpful.

Okay, so once I do that

discovery work that's

short and sweet in the

beginning, what's involved

with the next phase?

Was it research?

Yes.

step two is research?

and during this phase we

focused on researching

the competition and

surveying our customers.

But we can begin with the

competitive analysis first.

You know, with this

one, you wanna go.

Really, really deep on some

of the emerging players in

the space and understand how

they price their offerings.

And at the same time, you

need to sort of also study

legacy platforms and how

have they traditionally

structured pricing.

So what are some of

the industry norms?

And then I think, here's

another tip, which has

worked really well for us,

which is you also wanna

look at disruptive pricing

strategies, which may

not be in your space, you

know, in the past, like.

Salesforce, obviously,

they set the standard with

license based pricing and the

entire SaaS world followed.

But when it comes to usage

based pricing, companies like

Snowflake, Databricks, Twilio,

they have really led the way.

And so I would say the key is

to move beyond just looking

at your direct competitors.

You also want to study

how successful businesses

across industries charge

their customers, and more

importantly, what's their

unit of measurement for that

work-based or outcome-based

pricing approach.

I love what you said here,

so of course, kind of obvious

you would do some kind of

competitive analysis on

pricing, but this is a really

strong nugget to look at.

Basically, your peers in

the market or those that

you see are also disruptors

from a pricing perspective

and their markets.

I've seen similar strategies

even as, companies

might produce their

earnings reports, right?

They talk, they compare

themselves to some of their

peers in the market from

like maybe a disruption

perspective and consider

similar like units of

measure as you stated.

Such a great idea.

Okay, so where does customer

research then enter the

picture for some of this?

Yeah.

so I mean, you've got your

competitive analysis done,

you've surveyed, other

players in the space that

are disruptors, but now you

wanna take those insights

and validate them with

your real customers and.

What that looked like for

us was serving over 200

CX leaders to understand

their pricing preferences.

Now, these CX leaders weren't

necessarily our customers,

but they were CX leaders.

They could have been

customers of our competitors,

or they might be just

exploring new software.

So it was really everyone.

And we kind of wanted to know

where do they stand on the

different pricing models.

We clearly had an hypothesis.

We knew what competitors

were doing, but where

did they stand and what

was their appetite, uh,

for a new pricing model?

and then if we were to

roll something out, how

long would it take for

them to adopt a new model?

That's always a

big change, right?

Everyone's used to

seed based pricing.

We wanna get a sense of.

When people would be

really ready and, and what

that, you know, phased

approach might look like

in their ideal scenario.

And then you wanna also

get a sense of who are the

key decision makers driving

these pricing decisions.

Very often you think it's

CX leaders, but in in

smaller companies it could

be the CFO or the CEO who's.

The primary person here.

So we wanted to get a

sense of who would be, uh,

the people in the room as

we rolled something out.

and also things like what

are the price points?

Would they be willing

to pay for different

aspects of our platform

for a different features,

for our functionality?

So it's really that

willingness to pay exercise.

And for that you want

to give them a showcase

of all the features and

services that you'll be

offering and, and getting

a sense of how valuable

you think or they think

those features are to them.

Yeah.

Yeah, so discovering customer

insights is one of my

favorite parts of being A PMM.

There's something just really

satisfying about understanding

what makes people tick, why

customers might need or want

something a certain way.

So good, so good.

Okay.

So you did, um, let's say

I've, I've done the discovery,

I've done the research.

what's the next step?

the next step?

is design.

This is where you define what

will go into every package

and how much to charge for it.

And setting clear

guidelines and principles

upfront is critical.

For instance.

You may want a well-structured

upsell path between packages

or a deliberate approach to

how add-ons are introduced.

So.

A deep understanding of your

current costs, such as your

AI expenses, your hosting

fees, or operational overhead.

All of that is very

essential to protect and

optimize your gross margins,

and that is where data

becomes your best friend.

So having someone on the

team with strong analytical

skills will be really,

really invaluable in

making those data-driven

pricing decisions and.

This phase is also where

you wanna determine what

happens when customers

exceed their package limits.

Should they upgrade

to a higher tier plan?

Can they purchase an add-on?

Would a pay as you go model or

an overcharge make more sense?

And so all of these

decisions will directly

impact the flexibility,

scalability, and honestly

the long-term sustainability

of your pricing strategy.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Okay, so wanna back

up for a minute.

How did you determine what

goes into each package?

Did you have any

guiding principles?

Was that like part of

the customer survey?

Where did that come in?

can I just say it

just came to me.

I.

Yes, yes, you can.

Well, honestly, I just

thought about it from a

customer's perspective.

Basically, I asked myself

questions, what would happen

if I finished something

that was allotted to me?

If it was all done,

what would happen?

Would I be able to

purchase more as an add-on?

Would it be an upgrade

to a different package or

would I just be able to

pay a little bit more for

the extra that I used?

So what were my options?

And I wrote it down.

And so when I wrote it down,

I realized that for anything

that had a numerical value

to it, like if a feature

had a numer value, it made

sense to have a prepackaged

add-on with the discounting

available, where the more you

commit to using more, you get

higher discounts essentially.

But to ensure that nobody

faced a disruption in usage,

we always allow for a pay as

you go if somebody exceeds

what they were, allotted

initially in the package.

And then for any

feature that was just.

You know, either you

have it or you don't like

a check mark feature.

Then the goal was to just make

it available in the higher

package and they would have to

upgrade to a higher package.

So new medical values were

available as prepackaged add

onset, you could discount, and

then anything that was a check

mark or not was just, you

gotta buy the higher package.

That was really smart to

bake in the discounting.

'cause I know some, that's

something that sales

likes as a lever to pull

when they're structuring

deals with customers.

Also, can I just say,

this is why you're such

a powerful PMM, you wear

the customer's shoes.

I absolutely love this.

and imagine, or I can't

imagine, I'm not sure if you

did this on your own or if you

did it as a, exercise with PM

or with some of your leaders,

but doing a workshop of.

Let's all wear our

customers shoes together.

how would we dream up

these packages together?

I could see that being a

really strong alignment

exercise to do with

the stakeholders.

And that's exactly

what we did.

I mean, you already

know how to do pricing.

IM learning as we go.

I'm learning as we go.

Okay.

So up to this point, you've

done all the strategy

and foundation work for

the pricing strategy.

Now, how do you

put it into action?

What's the final step?

Yeah.

I mean the final step

operationalization that in

my view is the hardest part

of the entire process because

this is where the pricing

model moves from the theory

to the execution piece.

And so, you know, you gotta

be really cognizant of like.

Limits on features, and

you have to be very careful

that whatever you are,

enforcing is enforced

across every touch point.

So whether it is within

the product or within your

billing systems or on the

website and any documentation,

clarity is everything.

And the same stuff

needs to be reflected

everywhere because yeah.

If there's any ambiguity,

it can lead to customer

confusion, billing disputes,

friction in adoption is

just a,

boy.

Yeah.

we don't want that.

So ensuring everything is

seamlessly aligned will

require medical attention to

detail, and really strong,

strong collaboration across

product, engineering,

finance, and even marketing.

Yeah, I imagine this was

a massive, uh, rollout

across the company, and

you'd have to enable sales.

And in fact, on that note, how

did you enable sales on this?

How did you roll it out

across the entire company?

Yeah, this was a big rollout.

And so enablement, your point

is really the key thing that

you need to achieve here.

so I mean, I'll, I'm gonna go

in a little bit tactical here.

There are several key

assets really that you

want to roll out for this.

Smooth

transition.

Um, you want a

good FAQ document.

It should be a

comprehensive resource.

It should address common

questions, clarify key

details, questions like,

when can I start selling

these new packages?

What is the difference

between the packages?

Just be really, really

clear, and make it

really, really simple.

Um, you want a pricing tool.

It is an interactive tool.

It should help teams quickly

configure and understand

the best pricing options

for their customers.

So what's important to

remember though, when

you're designing these

tools, and I've seen a lot

of ROI calculators, they

can be so complicated.

You want something that's just

five questions or five inputs?

And a beautiful chart,

which shows the output.

So we did that.

We had a streamlined

tool, just five key

inputs, number of seats,

number of conversations,

proposed package add-ons

you want, and that's it.

Uh, okay.

I wanna interrupt

you for a minute.

So you had two, key

assets, probably a bunch

of other assets, but two

key assets for sales.

You had the A Q Doc and

you had this pricing tool,

the interactive tool.

Was that something that's

like, something that a sales

person uses, like a simple

spreadsheet, or is this like

a customer facing tool that

the sales maybe controls it,

but then the customer might

have visibility into it?

Yeah, so this one, well,

we developed it to be

a spreadsheet tool that

was internal and not

customer facing, but

that is the next step.

We do want to put it?

on the website and enable

customers to be able to.

Just send a couple

of key inputs and

see where they land.

So that is the next step

and we are working towards

getting there, but it's

so new right now that we

haven't quite Got that yet.

But good question.

I mean, for now it.

is internal.

but it'll eventually make it

to the website because I think

that's a wonderful way to

boost your demand gen efforts.

I think people

really like that.

okay.

So getting back to

rolling it out to sales.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So other assets, as I

said, two key assets, the

FAQ and the pricing tool,

but other assets being the

pricing one-on-one training.

So a foundational training

session covers everything

that's included in every

package, but more importantly,

real world pricing scenarios.

So you want to have a

hands-on approach so

teams can confidently

assess customer needs and

recommend the right package.

So we designed it so that.

They were, put in these

different scenarios where

they were talking to

different verticals with

different sizes of companies,

and we were like, which

package would you sell?

And so it was like a hands-on

exercise that just forced

them to get familiar with the

pricing and the packaging.

So helpful.

Yeah, And then we had

an objection handling

guide, which again.

Very, very important here.

'cause you know, when you're

rolling out new pricing,

mean, 99.9%, I can tell you

with confidence, you can

expect someone to say it's too

expensive or I only need these

features while we're paying

for these other features

that I don't think I'm

Yeah, anytime there's

like a significant

change, like pricing,

salespeople need to know how

to have those conversations.

exactly.

and then, I mean, they

need a standard talk track.

Should be a

compelling narrative.

Why are you changing

your pricing?

What's the value that

a customer will get?

Is it create a value,

flexibility, alignment

with where they are?

on that messaging piece,

like one thing to note

is that it'll be nuanced.

What you say to an existing

customer will be different

from what you will say to

future customers because with.

Existing customers, you gotta

reassure them that they will

be supported no matter what

with their renewal decisions.

they should know how

the transition will work

'cause they're paying

in a different way.

And now you're telling them

that they might have to change

the way that they pay you.

And for future customers,

it's more forward looking.

That highlights how this will

give them better value, how

it aligns with their modern

CX needs, the flexibility,

and so on and so forth.

Yeah, absolutely.

I could imagine being

a customer and hearing

pricing is changing.

It's good to have

the narrative.

I'm even thinking too,

very recently Netflix had a

price change and the market

did not like how they.

Put that narrative together.

I would say actually I would

say a lack of narrative.

It was very impersonal.

there's lots of chatter across

social media about that.

Uh, so very.

Astute for you to include

the talk track, the narrative

for salespeople to be able

to be able to handle that.

okay.

So you clearly have had a lot

of stakeholders and then you

met, you mentioned this early

on in the discovery phase.

Of this project, I imagine

lots of opinions on pricing,

especially folks like

leadership who have been

there for a long time and know

the customers really well.

So how did you get buy-in

from those folks who maybe

had strong opinion, like

who are the stakeholders?

Oh my God.

Ah.

Well, I like to think

of it as like two phases

of like stakeholders?

and the different people

that you speak to.

So think pre rollout and

post rollout and you know,

let's just separate those

two for a little bit.

on the pre rollout

phase, you wanna have

three different teams.

You want the executive team,

which has the C-E-O-C-T-O

founders, all of those people.

and this group.

They should receive regular

updates on progress,

ensure we're still doing

what they expect of us.

So you want that alignment

at the highest level and you

want a pricing committee.

And so this is a more

focused subset of the

executive team really.

this excludes the CEO and CTO.

We wanna spare them from every

decision, but it still helps

in driving those decisions.

So this role.

this committee really played a

crucial role in reviewing the

recommendations and offering

their insights and shaping

the final pricing proposal.

Like this one had the VP of

Finance and, and he was able

to tell us like, this is what

we are seeing in our deal desk

and, and so on and so forth.

So you wanna have

that smaller team.

and then the pricing

operationalization groups,

so think of this as the

execution focus team.

They're really the ones with

their boots on the ground,

like making things happen.

that last step that

I talked about, the.

Operationalized,

step phase four.

That's where these

people come in.

Um, so this one really has

representation across sales,

customer success, product

marketing, sales enablement,

systems architecture.

I never thought I

would talk to systems

architecture before this.

FPA legal billing, really

every function, Everybody.

everyone needed to implement

pricing successfully

across the organization.

You'd not.

I mean, I never thought there

would be so many implications

across Zuora billing price

Did you have like

info sessions?

Like that's a lot

of stakeholders.

It's a lot of stakeholders.

it was a lot of

alignment and a lot of

time spent on meetings.

But uh, it is what it is.

It is a big initiative

and it really has to happen.

and then the post

rollout, this was

really smart actually.

We have a new, new COO who

recommended that we had a

SWAT team and That's the

way you can actually measure

success and make changes fast.

And so we set some clear goals

around customer adoption of

the new pricing for like a

stipulated amount of time.

And the assembled SWAT

team really is dedicated to

enabling our go-to market

teams to hit those goals.

And so it's more like a one

team, one dream strategy.

And the SWAT team

is basically like.

Okay, this isn't working.

Or we need to change the

positioning a little bit

or like something about

some feature should be

available in every package.

That's the feedback that we

are hearing from the field.

Those sorts of changes

that need to be made

would come back from

the pricing SWAT team.

Got it.

Okay, so then you have

all your stakeholders.

Everybody's caught

up to speed.

Along, I'm assuming all

four phases of the project.

I guess after you launched,

what did this look like from

a customer's perspective?

How did you manage potential

customer objections?

I know you had the,

um, objection handling,

or how did you temper

expectations and like, was

that part of that narrative

that you put together?

Yeah, well, interestingly,

we launched it in a

very, very big way.

It was one of the major

announcements at a high

profile LinkedIn live

event with a website

overhaul and a debut of

our new AI agent offering.

So it was, it was a lot of

force behind this launch.

And so given the

significance, we wanted

to maximize its impact.

So rather than treating it as

a standalone update, we made

it a high visibility event.

But to your point, how do

you manage those customer

objections, you know?

Ahead of time, we made sure

that CX teams were prepared

with the enablement they

needed to talk to customers.

And in fact, those customers

that were nearing renewals

were already aware.

And so they already knew

what was coming at them.

and by the way, we rolled

this out last October,

but we also recognized

that businesses need to

transition at their own pace.

So.

Well, we are very

confident in the model.

We are giving customers

the flexibility to choose

what works best for them.

And it's funny you said

Netflix and their pricing,

but, actually have

a fun analogy here.

You know, just like

Netflix, they didn't move

from DVD rental service

to streaming overnight.

That's not how it went down.

they launched their DVD

business, I think in 1998,

and they introduced streaming,

I think in 2007, but.

To shift to streaming,

um, fully, I think it

was only around 2019.

2020. It's like 20 years.

It was a gradual shift.

Yeah.

It wasn't, it

wasn't overnight.

Nope.

And we expect that to

be the case here as

well, not 20 years.

I do hope not.

But it will be a gradual

shift for customers as

they get comfortable.

And so we are taking

that similar approach.

We are leading with

innovation, while ensuring our

customers can adopt the change

in a way that makes sense for

them along their timeline.

Yeah, what a

great analogy too.

And it really speaks to the

fact that while technology

and the way that we use

and consume technology does

have these huge influences

on even how we procure and

pay for, or the price that

we pay for some of these

services, the innovation

that takes place for that

can happen very rapidly.

But I, our adoption rate.

Maybe a little bit

more of a tail.

So, great parallel there.

okay, so last question for

you, Nupur on this topic.

What advice do you have for

a product marketer who's

trying to transform pricing

for their SaaS product?

Wow.

Pricing is never gonna

be a set it and forget

it kind of thing.

It just has to evolve.

And flexibility is everything.

You don't wanna lock

yourself into a model

that you can't adapt just

because you made a pivot

and you launched something.

So I would say what's

really important is staying

open to feedback and

keeping a pulse on what's

working and what's not.

And making those smart

adjustments along the way,

and that's how you'll build

that pricing model that

will actually work both for

you and the business, but

also for your customers.

Yes.

I love that.

Never said it and forget it.

In fact, we learned

that through the Netflix

example that you gave.

Things happen gradually and

so you gotta keep in touch

with metrics and customer's

perceptions and all of

that that's going on on

a regular basis for sure.

okay, so now I'd like to

switch gears a little bit

and move on to the second

segment of our show today,

the messaging critique.

So this is where we as product

marketers get to analyze

a real world messaging.

But here's the fun part,

npo, you my guest, get

to choose the company.

That we're gonna talk about.

okay.

Before we get started, I

wanna talk through three

things that I wanna focus on.

Just some ground rules about

the messaging critique.

So.

First, I wanna hear something

that you love about the

product or the company

or the messaging, like

what's working really well?

What's, what's standing

out in a positive way?

Second, I wanna hear something

that you wish the PMM

would've done differently.

Maybe something that would've

made the message clearer or

stronger or more impactful.

And then third.

What's a way that the

PMM could iterate or take

it to the next level?

Maybe think more creatively

about campaigns or leverage

voice of the customer,

anything to that matter.

So this is all about

learning, refining our craft.

No negativity.

Just a thoughtful,

constructive critique.

Are

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, I got

All right.

great.

Excited.

Okay.

So tell me what

product or company has

caught your attention?

Good, bad.

Somewhere in between.

Oh my god.

Goodbye.

Or Somewhere in between.

That's funny that

you say that.

Have you heard of pure.co?

No.

Okay.

pierre.co.

I'm plugging it into

my browser right now.

Please do that.

Yes.

Let's pull up their website.

have got a warning label.

They should.

they really should.

And I'll tell you why.

So before we get into it, let

me tell you what they are.

You know how GitHub board

reviews, they feel like

they're trying to have a

deep conversation over email.

That's not great.

No.

No one likes that.

engineers don't need

a feed-based social

network for coding.

They need something fast,

collaborative and actually

built for productivity and.

I think that's

where Pure comes in.

It lets engineers take

control of how their code is

reviewed, and it's really, I

think, solving for two biggest

pain points or headaches,

however you wanna call it.

one is setting better

context so your reviewer

isn't guessing what you

wrote and why it's looking

weird in this weird looking

syntax and function.

and then the second one

is managing discussions

so that feedback

doesn't turn into this.

50 comment thread that

nobody wants to read.

It just goes on and on.

And so the way that they

describe it on Y Combinator

is that it took the best parts

of iMessage for organized,

snappy conversations.

Figma for real

time collaboration.

I know we all love Figma and

notion for that structure.

Narrative driven review,

and then they built a

code review tool that

actually makes sense.

Ooh.

Ooh.

Okay, so for listeners,

it's pierre.co.

P-I-E-R-R e.co.

I'm on the website now

I can't even see

their messaging yet.

I guess like my first

impression is warning,

the following experience

may result in permanent

eyesight and or eye

color abnormalities.

If you

think modern code review is

fine as is, turn back Okay.

Before I click further,

before I click further.

They are outlining the

exact challenge that

they're set out to solve.

I mean, you just

said it, right?

Like if, if you think

modern code review is

fine as is, turn back.

yeah.

Well first off, they've

rebranded as the Pure Computer

Company, which I think is

brilliant.

see that.

I see that.

Okay.

Yeah.

that's brilliant.

That's a tongue in cheek

move and it's right

for their audience.

It's got that perfect

mix of nerdy, nostalgic,

and self-aware that makes

you instantly curious.

So that's amazing.

and that homepage,

like absolute goal,

it just grabs your

Okay.

right?

Yeah, I mean, I

haven't clicked it yet.

There's a little spinning

button that says click, at

your own risk or something.

What does it say?

You should click it.

Click it.

Okay.

Clicking,

uh

There you go.

Yeah.

that homepage, it's gold.

It's grabbing your attention.

It's too much.

It's too much.

there's like a static

noise there, eyes like

flowing across the screen.

Bright neon light, not

lights, but like bright

neon text that's just

jumping across the screen.

It feels almost like I took

some kind of psychedelic drug.

Yeah.

Yeah, just keep

scrolling and scrolling.

It's just gonna

keep it in minder.

every section's gonna be more

over the top and honestly, I

just can't stop looking away.

Is that me?

Is something wrong with me?

I.

don't know.

they got me where

they wanted me

Oh, there's more.

it gets more and more

wild as you scroll.

Okay.

Tell me what's working, what

are you liking about how

the PMM took this messaging?

I'll have to say, though, I

can't, it's so distracting.

Once you click into it beyond

the warning label, I'm so

overwhelmed that I'm lost.

I'm like, where do

I, where do I go?

What do I, it's almost

like they're making,

maybe making a statement.

On the problem.

I don't know.

I'm gonna pause.

I'm gonna let you tell me

like what's working, what's,

what are you liking about it?

Yeah, Well, I mean,

that's, the part, Right.

It grabs your

attention immediately.

I mean, and you can't blame

them like they wanted to

shock you and they wanted

to give you that experience,

so they did warn you and

they caught you where

they wanted you to be.

Like, you are there now on

their website and we are

talking about them today.

But you know, there is

like some things I feel

like they could have

done a little bit better.

You know, obviously we

wanna get a clearer picture

of what they're building

'cause they've got us

on their website and we

are talking about it.

But finding that is a bit

of a puzzle, you know.

I wish the site made it

more obvious that they

were creating a better

GitHub, because that

would be a game changer.

You know, I had to piece

that together from other

sources, but it'd be great

if that site just spelled

it out a little bit more.

and that said, this could

just be their shock in office.

You know, they just wanna

set the stage before rolling

out more details, and maybe

that deeper explanation

is gonna come soon.

I mean if you're still on the,

on the side, I would encourage

you to click on docs.

All right.

Okay.

Less overwhelming, more

Let's forward that one.

Yep.

Very clear.

So, I wish the homepage

on Docs had more product

screenshots that would've

pulled me in because

if you click on one of

them, you'll see that

this is more traditional.

I would almost say that

they could skip this extra

docs homepage altogether and

just drop me straight into

a main page with a left hand

menu And I mean, if you're

still on there, you should

also check out their change

log, because that's where

things are are gonna be funny.

I, I would say,

Oh,

yeah.

So they have only

one change log entry.

It's called building a Brand.

Funny that they

are doing that.

You know, traditionally

I would say building a

brand would've been a blog

post, not a change log,

but like, let's be real.

Nothing about this

company is traditional

and I love that

they just own it.

These straight up leave

placeholders instead

of pretending there's

more that's just.

So on Brag for their audience.

Just look at that.

So they're not going

for, you know, the

enterprise button up play.

They're just leaning into

the chaos almost making a

mockery of the usual approach.

that's what the developer

community wants.

They eat that up, they

value authenticity and

Pure has that part nailed.

and by the way.

I don't know if you wanna do

this, but I mean, if you, if

you're feeling wild today,

click on the brand article

there's another warning label.

that's right.

And it says, Warning.

Yes,

see more or you wanna

yes.

I like aggressive

colors and noises.

No, that sounds bad.

Well.

I see click on.

No, that sounds bad because

honestly, I clicked on it

once and I'm not about to

assume this audience is

totally fine with whatever

madness comes next.

I clicked.

I, I clicked.

Yes.

And that was a

immediate mistake.

Yeah, it's just hilarious.

But

It's, they're absolutely

making a mockery

of the current kind

of, uh, status quo.

Absolutely.

exactly.

well, I mean, if I had to

sum up my experience with

peers so far, authenticity

and audience nailed it.

They know exactly who

they're speaking to.

They lean all the way

in, positioning and

competitive differentiation

that needs work.

right now it's all wives.

I'd love to see a

picture of y pure,

especially for new users.

And then.

I would say the user journeys

are a little bit of a maze.

So the shock and

off factor is great.

I love it.

But at some point you want

more, and that's always

not so easy to find.

But for now, this

approach totally works.

They're banking on that

word of mouth and the

developer community to

fuel adoption, which is

I. think, smart led move.

but long term, they'll wanna

make it more clear about

what p actually is, because

Yeah.

I.

with answers, not

just the experience.

I think you're spot on.

I know you mentioned puzzles

and I think that's also

clearly so intentional.

as they scale.

Yeah.

I predict that they're

gonna have some diminishing

returns, so they're gonna

have to, and to your point,

like they, it must be part

of their rollout, right?

Like, I'm sure they plan

on coming, coming out with

something more clearer.

but for now, just

really diving hard

into, the shock value.

Wow.

shout out to Pierre

Pmms out there.

You guys are super,

super creative.

Great job with the

storytelling way to dive into.

Delivering a differentiated

web experience.

Um, super cool.

Okay, so Nupur, before

we go, I just wanna have

a gratitude moment and

say thank you so much for

your willingness to share.

Your knowledge and expertise

on pricing and all things

product marketing, you're

such an inspiration to

me and the PMM community.

So thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

and I wanna turn

it over to you.

What, pmms, maybe one or

two, three pmms have really

inspired you and your work and

made an impact on your career.

Well, Elle, you.

are just far too kind.

I feel like I'm not deserving

of So much kindness, but

I mean, you are such a big

influence on me as well.

You're doing amazing work with

this podcast and, and with

everything that you're doing,

over in your career as well.

if I had to.

Think about people that

I want to extend my, you

know, heartfelt gratitude

to, I would say Charla,

who I think we both know.

She's had a big influence.

you know, she's never

been a direct manager, but

every conversation that

I have with her has just

made me a better manager.

She has this incredible

ability to draw insights

out of me just by asking

the right questions or my

thinking in a new direction.

She's One of the most

insightful people I know,

and then there's Claire by,

she's incredibly sharp and

one of the most impressive

things about her is how

she's built this magnetic

circle of top talent.

People just naturally

gravitate to wherever she

is, and that's not luck.

It's a skill.

and creating that kind

of influence and loyalty

really speaks volumes about

her leadership and impact.

Um, and then finally Sarah

Varney, who was, uh, the CM

of Twilio back in the day.

And she's one of the most

genuinely accessible leaders

I've ever worked with.

People love her,

they adore her.

you know, what's

special about her?

She's really great at

creating lasting memories

for everyone She works with.

Everyone has a special

memory with Sarah, and

that's kind of, you know,

that's a genuine connection.

It's just rare.

likeability matters a lot, and

I think she embodies it in a

way that makes her not just

a great leader, but someone

people truly want to follow.

Yes.

Oh, I could not agree more.

Yes.

And uh, you mentioned

three women who I also

had the privilege of

working with and for, and

I could not agree more.

so amazing.

Yes.

Uh, okay, Nupur, one, one

last question for you.

where else can we

find your expertise?

Is it just best to

follow you on LinkedIn?

Yes, LinkedIn?

for now.

So just hit me up.

We are looking for full stack

product marketers and if

that's something that's of

interest, please reach out.

I'm always happy to chat.

Awesome.

Thank you again, Nupur,

and thank you PMM listeners

for coming on this

adventure with us today.

I hope this episode leaves

you with inspiration

to take into your next

step of your journey.